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Another NICE Dressage Stallion!


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#101 Cold Spring Farm

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 02:38 AM

Yes -- his size and the OCD are dealbreakers for me. Size seems to be a huge wildcard with the Arab/WBx. I have seen waaay too many that barely go beyond 15h -- or, you get a decent size. Seems like it is all over the map. Mine have all been 16h or better (and I measure with an aluminum stick, with bubble level, on concrete -- so these are true heights, lol) A friend of mine also has a truly wonderful Frohwind half-arab who I believe sticks at 16.3 (BIG, elastic gaits and fabulous temperment and work ethic) (I need height, but I don't enjoy riding the gargantuans anymore, so I do worry about them getting TOO big lol) And with the WBs themselves -- they do have a much longer growth window. (A friend of mine bought a 16.2hh 6yr old Contango, thinking he might get another inch or two -- and the horse kept growing and was 18h at 8-yrs. With soundness issues.

I agree that BW is showing loft and expression in his gaits, but I think tension is really limiting his elasticity. He shows much more in his training videos than in the stallion shows. (And If you have ever sat through one of those things, the atmosphere is electric and heck, it even made ME tense! ;-) His gaits are much more scopey and over the back in the training videos .But the Jazz line IS dinged as being more of a professional ride, while DeNiro tends to be the opposite. So -- interesting cross there and it will be interesting to see how this horse stands up over time. I do have a neighbor who is one of the top KWPN breeders in the country and has one of her mares in foal to him. She has used Jazz, Johnston, Flemmingh and Sir D in recent years -- so I am anxious to see what she gets from BW.

I must say.... this has been a wonderful and enlightening discussion......and I really look forward to the day when we can have these types of discussions about PB Arabian breeding stock. I would LOVE to breed for a PB dressage horse, and if the market were actually viable, I would be actively building a small broodmare band aimed solely at producing dressage athletes. I would love to see some lines and some specific stallions really start to emerge as dressage producers (and jumper producers, for those whose interest lies there!). It is just REALLY difficult to get honest evaluations of the horses and I personally think that is what is needed if we are ever to develop that aspect of the breed, and make them a consistently viable and more uniform choice for sport. Okay -- off the soapbox now!

Tam -- sorry to take your wonderful thread a bit off the rails!!
Cheers,
Janet

#102 Tamcam

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 08:12 AM

LOL - I don't think this thread is off track at all! In fact it is going where I have always hoped it could go - intelligent discussion of some very NICE dressage stallions and how we as breeders of Arabian bred dressage type horses can go to improve our breeding practices and goals. I'm so glad that BW was added and the discussion went exactly where it should go. This horse is amazing to watch, but he has his conformational problems and there is the issue of OCD. The great thing about breeding to WB stallions is that this type of information is out there and people are allowed to make their decisions based on facts. Ladies thank you for keeping this educational!

I feel this type of education only adds to our goals of breeding PBs. We have lots to learn from those that have been doing this for centuries. I bred for PBs this year and got 2 amazingly talented colts. I'm keeping one and selling the other. They are both so much better than I expected and I'm keeping the one my husband likes (he's basically pays for them, so I guess he can choose - haha) If you like "modern" type dressage horses and you want a PB Arabian - possible stallion prospect and outrageously bred (total outcross to everything out there including the Polish & Crabbet) I have one!

CARLOS


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#103 Maigray

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 09:20 AM

Ironicially, if someone were interested in breeding to him, Arabian mares would be my first choice for such a cross. They would have the best chance of controlling size and correcting legs and feet.

#104 ms raven

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:14 AM

Ironicially, if someone were interested in breeding to him, Arabian mares would be my first choice for such a cross. They would have the best chance of controlling size and correcting legs and feet.


Umm. Very good point! Should be interesting to see if any Arabs are bred to him. I think in general Arab mare owners might not be put off as much by the stud fee as WB peeps might. It is coming off as a big issue to them, (based on what I read) but for PB the new "IT", hot stallions seems to start at double his price. A good arabian is going to have short strong cannons but I would still be put off by his very straight, tight shoulder and considered to be weak loin. I also think we have to improve the SIT in our horses and we need to add elasticity always! If all he is is a leg mover and our arabian mares have plans to kill that extravagant knee (which they often do) then maybe we are left with a pretty black horse who may or may not inherit OCD, may or may not be able to carry from behind, probably wouldn't use it's back too well, possibly have iffy legs and might be a psycho related to Jazz.!! :) From his camp's perspective I agree, I think they would be very smart to welcome any arabian mare to be bred to him!

Hi Janet. Glad we are the same page with BW! With regards to size, a couple of people had questioned me for my mare's height when I posted that she had been approved GOV on COTH. I took that discussion to PM but heading into the inspection I had spoken with the host a few times. In each instance she made a point to talk about what I might expect from the Verband with regards to their evaluation of an Arabian. She has a lot of experience with inspections and I got a sinking feeling that she was preparing me for my mare to be put in the pony book!!

We talked about height a bit but one part of our discussion that really stood out to me was that in her experience she felt that they may consider an arabian mare to be tall enough, but if she were of the bigger bodied, shorter-legged type, (I interpret as maybe the stockier crabbet, polish type mares), they had seen and believed that that type of mare would be more likely to produce the same (bigger bodied, shorter-legged) pony type when crossed with a WB.

Not to say I have any idea whether my mare would or would not thrown short but she does have a good bit of Russian blood and so is fairly tall looking. I spoke with the inspectors a bit afterwards and to them it seems most important for us would be to take from the WB elasticity and for them they want the type that our sporthorse type mares can contribute.

I think we need to find the balance, a WB that will allow the arabian type to come through (this is where those Caprimond, Akzent II lines come into play) and a WB who will contribute his strength and elasticity but who's own frame and type is not so wildly different that the blend will be harmonious. Our target market is more likely to be arabian people participating in dressage and so as always we must have horses that are pretty to look at!

edit to add: It would be great to discuss our PB arab stallions in this manner in the future for sure! I hope that will happen some day but based on current trends I would be happy to see some video of an arab stallion cantering. :) I think we can start by forgetting about breeding flashy trots and goofy necks because the trot is the least important gait and most of the conformational attributes that are coming with those trots are making it difficult for those horses to get under and carry well enough to do dressage.

#105 ms raven

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:54 AM

What do you all think about Trakehners in general?

There was a very rave review of a Le Rouge mare posted on COTH and I looked into him a bit today. I am still looking at him with interest because I like how he moves (well except the straight knee at times). He oozes rideability and that canter, looks like he could do that all day!

Le Rouge
Le Rouge Offspring
Iskander by Le Rouge - Includes a very detailed summary of Le Rouge's pedigree. Here they note that he has produced approved stallions of the Caprimond mares.

Back to our WB boys. Of the IT stallions being bred to on mass at the moment, I think the Florencio son Floriscount is one of the better ones! His lines look fairly heavy to me but a good deal of his foals are more typey than he is and he seems to stamp them quite well. I think performance wise, he is not as flashy at the trot as the rest of the IT boys but watching him I think he has good potential to get to a high level and be able to sustain that level for some time. He is put together quite well (croup maybe a bit too sloping) but a great shoulder and he looks very easy to ride. He has a great walk and a beautiful canter! Too heavy?

Floriscount HB Feb 2011
Floriscount - Via Elite Stallions

#106 Tamcam

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 11:59 AM

Umm. Very good point! Should be interesting to see if any Arabs are bred to him. I think in general Arab mare owners might not be put off as much by the stud fee as WB peeps might. It is coming off as a big issue to them, (based on what I read) but for PB the new "IT", hot stallions seems to start at double his price. A good arabian is going to have short strong cannons but I would still be put off by his very straight, tight shoulder and considered to be weak loin. I also think we have to improve the SIT in our horses and we need to add elasticity always! If all he is is a leg mover and our arabian mares have plans to kill that extravagant knee (which they often do) then maybe we are left with a pretty black horse who may or may not inherit OCD, may or may not be able to carry from behind, probably wouldn't use it's back too well, possibly have iffy legs and might be a psycho related to Jazz.!! :) From his camp's perspective I agree, I think they would be very smart to welcome any arabian mare to be bred to him!

Hi Janet. Glad we are the same page with BW! With regards to size, a couple of people had questioned me for my mare's height when I posted that she had been approved GOV on COTH. I took that discussion to PM but heading into the inspection I had spoken with the host a few times. In each instance she made a point to talk about what I might expect from the Verband with regards to their evaluation of an Arabian. She has a lot of experience with inspections and I got a sinking feeling that she was preparing me for my mare to be put in the pony book!!

We talked about height a bit but one part of our discussion that really stood out to me was that in her experience she felt that they may consider an arabian mare to be tall enough, but if she were of the bigger bodied, shorter-legged type, (I interpret as maybe the stockier crabbet, polish type mares), they had seen and believed that that type of mare would be more likely to produce the same (bigger bodied, shorter-legged) pony type when crossed with a WB.

Not to say I have any idea whether my mare would or would not thrown short but she does have a good bit of Russian blood and so is fairly tall looking. I spoke with the inspectors a bit afterwards and to them it seems most important for us would be to take from the WB elasticity and for them they want the type that our sporthorse type mares can contribute.

I think we need to find the balance, a WB that will allow the arabian type to come through (this is where those Caprimond, Akzent II lines come into play) and a WB who will contribute his strength and elasticity but who's own frame and type is not so wildly different that the blend will be harmonious. Our target market is more likely to be arabian people participating in dressage and so as always we must have horses that are pretty to look at!


Interesting. My experience with OldNA & AHS is fairly extensive and I have not seen where "size" was ever a factor when they approve an Arabian mare. In fact, I've been told by those that inspect them that the Polish Arabians are very much respected in europe and they are happy whenever they have the opportunity to approve a mare with a polish pedigree. I have been advised from what many would consider some of the best WB breeder's in the world to breed my Arabian mare to a stallion that shares her type and that will add a bit of length to her leg. That really was the motivation to starting this thread, to encourage us Arabian breeders to look beyond the "IT" stallions and produce the very best that we can. Benidetto, Fabuleux, Liberty Gold, Rubignon (OldNA would LOVE to see Arabian mares bred to this stallion) and the Escudo brothers came highly recommended. OldNA made the comment that Arabians in general need to be bred to stallions that have an 8 or better walk score, as this is the weakest gait that they have consistently seen on the Arabian mares they have seen and approved.

Just as recent as 2 weeks ago, I had the opportunity to sit down with some of the Stallion Committee within the AHS and asked lots of questions about where to take my mare next. 2 of the judges present had either been on the panel that approved my mare or saw her presented with her Escudo II foal. De Niro & Bellissimo M were strongly recommended, as that will add a bit of length to her leg and keep consistent with her type. I had photos and videos on my laptop of her 2 foals. They said my mare definitely produced herself with improvements. They had just licensed a stallion the day before, Dreammaster by DiMaggio and thought he would be worth me looking into, also Benidetto came up again. Since I'm going for a broader market, not just Arabian, Fabuleux comes HIGHLY recommended. So I'm going to see him when I'm in KY later this month. I'm just throwing all this out there from the registries point of view of where they see Arabian blood will benefit them later on in a pedigree. I'll also add that they really like my E II filly and suggested going back for another, but understood my wanting to try something different. Since my mare seems to really produce herself, the stallions they suggested were specific to adding length of leg and improving the walk & canter.

I had asked about Falsterbo, as I really like him and was advised against it due to the walk being questionable for my mare. And since the Arabian people seem to really like the Sandro Hit look, I asked who they thought would best benefit me - answer was not in favor due to the walk and general lightness of that line already and they didn't see where any Arabian blood would improve that line. Again this was for my mare specifically. I encourage all of you to ask questions when you're at an inspection (after the inspection there is usually a little party, at least at all of the ones I'm at, this is a great time to bend their ear a little. And I have found they really do want you to breed the very best foal that you can, so they are not trying to sell you on a stallion they may be tied to.) Perfect example, I asked a one inspector if they thought my mare should be bred to a stallion in her barn and she advised that he was not the best choice, but if I wanted to he would give me a lovely foal. She thought he was too "old style" for her and that there were better choices.


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#107 Tamcam

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 12:13 PM

What do you all think about Trakehners in general?

There was a very rave review of a Le Rouge mare posted on COTH and I looked into him a bit today. I am still looking at him with interest because I like how he moves (well except the straight knee at times). He oozes rideability and that canter, looks like he could do that all day!

Le Rouge
Le Rouge Offspring
Iskander by Le Rouge - Includes a very detailed summary of Le Rouge's pedigree. Here they note that he has produced approved stallions of the Caprimond mares.

Back to our WB boys. Of the IT stallions being bred to on mass at the moment, I think the Florencio son Floriscount is one of the better ones! His lines look fairly heavy to me but a good deal of his foals are more typey than he is and he seems to stamp them quite well. I think performance wise, he is not as flashy at the trot as the rest of the IT boys but watching him I think he has good potential to get to a high level and be able to sustain that level for some time. He is put together quite well (croup maybe a bit too sloping) but a great shoulder and he looks very easy to ride. He has a great walk and a beautiful canter! Too heavy?

Floriscount HB Feb 2011
Floriscount - Via Elite Stallions



I see lots of different horse in high level competition and inspections for many different registries and Trakehners are not high on my list. They tend to be tense, hot and many look to be trainer or excellent rider mounts. Love to watch them, but they wouldn't be my first choice to ride.

On Elite Stallions website (Le Rouge) is a stallion, Bentley. Many of the core Hanoverian breeders are high on this stallion. Modern riding type, with 3 excellent gaits, by Bellissimo M. If my mare was a candidate for using frozen semen, this stallion would be high on my list.
BENTLEY



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#108 zai

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 01:13 PM

The Arab-Trak crosses are interesting however. I have always admired the Trakehner Stiletto whose dam line is Arabian. There is also an Arab-Trak youngster by Kougar von C advertised on the ATA site in Ontario who is very tempting. Kougar is a paternal half brother to Totilas so it is certainly an interesting half-Arab cross....and of course there is Asher whom I love...he has that Arab look in a perfectly conformed warmblood package. Not as much dressage movement but a wonderful all-around sporthorse.

#109 ms raven

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 01:34 PM

Interesting. My experience with OldNA & AHS is fairly extensive and I have not seen where "size" was ever a factor when they approve an Arabian mare. In fact, I've been told by those that inspect them that the Polish Arabians are very much respected in europe and they are happy whenever they have the opportunity to approve a mare with a polish pedigree.


Feel like I should clarify. They, GOV, made no comment about any particular lines whatsoever. My comment about the "look" being polish / crabbet was my own generalization. I too share the opinion that our Polish arabians are among the best (and proven by racing) athletes that we have. Clearly, the arabs with polish, crabbet lines are the ones that are having success in dressage and that is well supported but the lengthy thread on COTH. I thought their theory about phenotype was interesting though and I brought that up in reply to Janet's comment about our mares producing short horses. Maybe there is a link there.

I have been advised from what many would consider some of the best WB breeder's in the world to breed my Arabian mare to a stallion that shares her type and that will add a bit of length to her leg.


Yes, I share the same belief and have heard that theory multiple times. Thanks for sharing what you discussed with the committee! I like that they seem to have become much more openly accepting of Arabians. :) I am very, very drawn to Bellissimo M and Bentley and have been for some time!! Watching Bentley's foals and I love how he uses himself. Question is can he produce it and I like that he is bay. I seem incapable of shaking the draw to chestnut stallions though. Argh! I like the comment about Sandro Hit. lol. I will take that as less of a shot against our arabs being unable to help him and more against Sandro Hit being so weak behind that he needs a LOT of help.

Did you by chance ask for their thoughts about Furstenball?

#110 Tamcam

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Posted 04 September 2011 - 02:01 PM

I like the comment about Sandro Hit. lol. I will take that as less of a shot against our arabs being unable to help him and more against Sandro Hit being so weak behind that he needs a LOT of help.

Did you by chance ask for their thoughts about Furstenball?


Not being able to help? The WB registries only approve Arabians that do help them, that is the point of adding them into their gene pool. They are breeding the very best sport horses and are always looking at how to make an even better one and if an Arabian can do what they need, they like adding them to their registries. What they want from the Arabian is good bone density, strong hooves and a large heart for more endurance. So they are looking for mares that excel under their criteria, if they happen to be pretty, bonus. If they are not only athletic, but pretty we will see more mares being approved. I personally like this trend. These crosses make excellent ammy horses that can compete to the highest levels in the open shows. About Sandro Hit, I don't think they were dissing those horses in any way, where they excel other lines needs and where they are weak (walk) other lines make up. The point was to educate me to the fact that breeding Arabians who are known to have a weaker walk to a Sandro Hit, does not help improve that line. Do they make beautiful and very capable horses for people to ride, absolutely, but will they breed on to improve their ultimate goal, probably not. Its all about looking at everything objectively and making the best possible choice to better the collective.

I didn't ask about Furstenball, nor did he come up in conversation. Several horses were mentioned that I was not all that familiar with reference to being highly under used, due to younger "IT" stalliions being more popular. They feel that a stallion needs to prove themselves at sport before serious breeding can be done. Some changes may be coming up for licensing the young stallions to slow the "hype" down. At least that's how I took it. There is some concern about the disappearing "G" line and a sireline in the "D". So most of the conversation was around looking at the future and what they see happening and theories on how to move ahead. Super fascinating, it was like school for horse breeding.


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