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Using Strain Pedigrees as a breeding tool


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#21 Barbara G

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Posted 11 October 2006 - 08:04 AM

http://www.elmasri.net/search.html

Try this data base.... and it lists strains too.
Barbara and Mercury
aka BFA Regality(VP Regal Heir x BSA Latifa)*Moatasim
I'm not a breeder, just a woman who is in love with her horse and wants to learn more....

#22 Avalondales

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 03:46 AM

Hi all,

In this day of shipped ######, IA, Embryo Transfer I think strains have to take on a different context then they did back the history of the Bedouin horse... They are interesting as far as explaining all the various types of Arabian Horses and their specific attributes... There are wonderful legends associated with the creation of the five Al Khamsa Mares...Taking the El Masri Database that Barbara generously listed as a resource and looking way back in the pedigree to the point that the horse reverts to Desert Bred the breeding is pretty consistant a horse of the same strain bred to a horse of the same strain...Or in other words a pure in the strain horse... Now ,my thought is that Europeans have the reputation of scoffing at the idea of Strain breeding, even Lady Anne Blunt seemed to doubt the phenomenon although she did follow some pattern that was akin to strain breeding..My thought is that today thanks to Western intervention the Arabian horses that we are seeing are a diluted version of the strains of the desert bred horse.... That is why we are not able to look at a horse and say this is his/her strain I see that very clearly...Just food for thought... Tracy
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#23 Century Oak Arabians

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 10:16 AM

Some of them you can Tracy :movieprojector: But I think it depends too on the individuals interpretation of the strain description as well lol This is a group of folks that can't agree on a set definition of "type" much less something like strain characteristics lol :P

I agree with Barbara on the El Masri Database. Julia worked and is still working very ###### this database and you can be sure the information she has there is correct.. if you see a discrepancy just email her and I'm sure she would be willing to explain or correct if necessary.
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#24 Avalondales

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Posted 12 October 2006 - 05:11 PM

Donna,

Julia's database is a most valuable tool when researching pedigrees... She has pictures, strains, breeders, and YES is most thorough and extensive...She also is glad to help people with any problems they may have...It is truly one of the best tools I have found...I was making the point that Barbara was kind enough to share the link and in NO way was I implying that it was anything less than wonderful...Or that Julia herself was anything less than wonderful...

The point I was trying to make is that in this day and age with all the modern conveniences we don't see strain types as clearly defined as they were when the Bedouin was doing the breeding...The Arabian horse as far as strain is truly a melting pot at this point in history as much of Barbara's research demonstrates...One thing that is constant is that at least a certain percentage of the females in the pedigree are going to be of the same strain, but anything else is up for grabs...Take any American citizen as an analogy... We are of various cultures, religions, and colors... But looking at me with blond hair, green eyes, and extremely fair skin you might make the assumption that I was Nordic, German, or Irish, when actually I am Irish, Native American, and quite a few generations ago there was a mix of African in my pedigree... While I look Irish my brothers and sisters look Native American... All of my horses are either Dahman or Hadban and some are pure in the strain Hadban...Do I see only Hadban or Dahman in those horses...Not at all...Now I realize that your stallion in pure in the strain and predominently Dahman. Even his grandparents excepting one horse were Dahman... I would expect that your horse would look Dahman... But it is not so for a great many Arabians especially for those in the middle of the spectrum and of a blending strain...They tend to take on the characteristic of the middle and then whichever end of the spectrum the breeder is breeding for. But any day you can have ###### from one part of the world met up with an egg from another chances are there is going to be some diluting of a strain or not...Then we get into the phenomenon known are linebreeding/inbreeding versus outcrossing...That my be actually what we are talking about but calling it strain breeding.. Legend links strains to a variety of five mares of various strains, when actually a strain marks a breeder or a geographical area and a substrain is in reference to a variation within the population... Thesis done I am going to bed...Tracy
AVALONDALES EGYPTIAN ARABIANS
The Spirit of Ancient Egypt

The home of

SA Shaikh Al Sakr (Harakka X FA Maronique)
Ceasare (Sahlih X J Zaziza)
Bint Ishtar (Prince Ibn Shaikh X Shams El Ishtar)
Sara Al Badeia (Sugaa X Mariam Al Badeia)
Josephin Albadeia (Sugaa X Mariam Al Badeia)
B B Krystal (PVA Kariim X B B Crystali)
RSA Mara Moniet (TCP Rada Bazaz X Sonnys Sharaffa)
SA Almase Sarab (Harakka x Bint Ishtar) For Sale
AVA Amira El Sakr (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Bint Ishtar)For Sale
AVA Chelsea Rose (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Bint Ishtar)For Sale
AVA Ishaaq Al Haytham (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Sara Al Badeia)
AVA Lilith (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X Josephin Al Badeia)
AVA Ibn Waas-No-De' (SA Shaikh Al Sakr X RSA Mara Moniet) For Sale
Please contact http://www.avalondal...abianhorses.com for information regarding any of the young stock we have listed for sale

Life isn't about having and getting, but being and becoming...

#25 Century Oak Arabians

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 04:58 AM

lol no I didn't think that Tracy :bigemo_harabe_net-117: It's a great database and I have the utmost respect for Julia for putting the time and work into it to make it available for everyone. It's probably the only one I trust explicitly because I know how dedicated she is to correct information :)

All of my horses are either Dahman or Hadban and some are pure in the strain Hadban...Do I see only Hadban or Dahman in those horses...Not at all...Now I realize that your stallion in pure in the strain and predominently Dahman. Even his grandparents excepting one horse were Dahman... I would expect that your horse would look Dahman... But it is not so for a great many Arabians especially for those in the middle of the spectrum and of a blending strain...They tend to take on the characteristic of the middle and then whichever end of the spectrum the breeder is breeding for.


This is the point many people miss, which you've captured exactly :) A horse can be of a strain through their tail female, say Kuhaylan, but if the rest of the pedigree is predominantly a different strain like Saklawi, then that horse will most likely *not* resemble the descriptions of Kuhaylan even though technically that is their strain and some Kuhaylan characteristics may be visible. Most Arabians out there today are a blending of strains to create their own unique look which still fits within the definition of Arabian type.

It is interesting to note though that linebreeding in many ways as you mentioned is strain breeding, whether people realize it or not. Or perhaps when they see and individual with certain characteristics they like.. ie substance, or elegance.. then that characteristic is probably coming through a strain to that horse. By continuing to breed for that characteristic then you are in a sense, strain breeding as well. :)
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#26 Barbara G

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Posted 13 October 2006 - 01:21 PM

I've researched Mercury's pedigree back 10 generations thanks to Julia's data base. I have counted 247 Kuhaylan, 213 Dahman and 195 Saklawi individuals.. also through Saklawi I, 87 individuals which could be either Saklawi or Kuhaylan in his sire's female tail.

Merc is Dahman Shahwan through his female tail line (Farida).

He also has several other strains thrown in for good measure.

Based upon pictures of his ancestors and the light and the way Mercury stands or poses, I definately can see the 3 major strains in him .... Some times he looks Dahman; sometimes Kuhaylan and sometimes Saklawi... (and sometimes mule:lol)
Barbara and Mercury
aka BFA Regality(VP Regal Heir x BSA Latifa)*Moatasim
I'm not a breeder, just a woman who is in love with her horse and wants to learn more....

#27 Pembroke

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 01:24 PM

I am not sure I feel That we can sit and point fingers at shipped ###### as to why breeding in strains is almost non-existient, though I do believe it does play some part, but more for the reasons that it makes it tremendously easier to breed to the "HOT" stud of the moment. Breeding to the "HOT" stud of the moment is not taking into consideration strains.


So for curiosity what are you all considering as pure in strain?

There are some who are still active in breeding by strain, and I have meet many who are envolved in the Al Khamsa group who do so.


Here is an example of a stallion breed 4 generations pure in strain
he is breed by the Cravers and he is Kuhaylan Haifi in strain
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#28 Century Oak Arabians

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Posted 14 October 2006 - 04:11 PM

I've always heard Pure in Strain defined as both parents being the same strain, 2 generations pure in strain would mean all 4 grandparents were of the same strain. I would think if a horses pedigree was totally all one strain it would be basically linebreeding to the max and beyond and might not be such a good thing.

I don't feel that AI is the cause of people not strain breeding either. I think however if people want to breed to the hot stud of the moment, they will with or without AI. I do feel though that "the hot stud" of the moment is far more important to some than what that individual mare should indeed be bred to or what stallion might give her more of what she individually needs whether of her strain or not. But then you get into fad breeding and that's always been a big hangup with people, and a huge detriment to the breed as well :wub:
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#29 Pembroke

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Posted 15 October 2006 - 07:35 AM

I've always heard Pure in Strain defined as both parents being the same strain, 2 generations pure in strain would mean all 4 grandparents were of the same strain. I would think if a horses pedigree was totally all one strain it would be basically linebreeding to the max and beyond and might not be such a good thing.

I don't feel that AI is the cause of people not strain breeding either. I think however if people want to breed to the hot stud of the moment, they will with or without AI. I do feel though that "the hot stud" of the moment is far more important to some than what that individual mare should indeed be bred to or what stallion might give her more of what she individually needs whether of her strain or not. But then you get into fad breeding and that's always been a big hangup with people, and a huge detriment to the breed as well :wub:




I asked the question of what everyone else is considering as a pure in strain because I was curious if there would also be differences there, and as I figured there is.

Century Oak what you described here as 2 generations pure in strain is the definition of what I have been thought is the 1 generation pure in strain.

This gives me the impression that because there is descripencys among us who like to study the strains that just maybe people who look at it throw up their hands in the air and say "Heck why bother!"

I am not sure there is a right or wrong answear as I think each of our veiws come from a different angle of breeding.

I used the stallion in my above post as an example for a lot of reasons, one being there are not that many 4 generation pure in strain horses out there that I am aware of, but also as when one looks at him and then looks at his pedigree one will most likely only see the Kuhaylan Haifi as that is pretty much all there is. As I do agree with the poster who stated that a horse can be one strain because of their tail female line but more represent a whole different strain as the majority of their pedigree is something other then the tail female strain. Though I would agree that linebreeding is present in this stallions pedigree I would also say it is no where as linebreed/inbreed as some others I have seen, nor will I hold with the thought that all linebreeding/inbreeding is bad and should be avoided at all cost. I will say though that I do believe that it is a method of breeding that should be done only by those who know how to do so discriminately and left alone by those who do not. I personally will leave the inbreeding to more experienced breeders then myself. Lastly because I love this stallion and wish he was part of my own small herd!
here is a link to the stallions pedigree Quatrain CF- ( the blue represents the K. Haifi)
http://www.davenporthorses.org/pedigree/Q/...IN_CF92c26.HTML


I have three mares in my barn the two straight Davenport mares are both Kuhaylan but of different sub-strains one is Haifi and the other is krush and even to a untrained eye one can see the differences in them. While the third mare is about 90% Davenport with a small line of Crabbet breeding she is of Munghi strain. Though all three mares share some similar breeding and ancestors they each have there own look.

#30 Century Oak Arabians

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Posted 16 October 2006 - 08:14 AM

Though I would agree that linebreeding is present in this stallions pedigree I would also say it is no where as linebreed/inbreed as some others I have seen, nor will I hold with the thought that all linebreeding/inbreeding is bad and should be avoided at all cost.


Definitely :wub: The premise on strain breeding equaling in some points line breeding would depend on what horses a strain descended from. In my colts' pedigree he has many crosses back to El Dahma, more through Bint Sabbah but a couple through Farida as well. Though I'm reasonably sure the focus was put on certain horses as far as linebreeding, in effect they have strain bred as well simply by the horses they wanted to strengthen up on being one particular strain as opposed to being several different strains.

Gosh I need more coffee this morning to wade through those kinds of thoughts lol

Linebreeding nor strain breeding is a bad thing no more than outcrossing is a bad thing. It simply depends on the homework and care put into it beforehand. It's not enough to "just" breed for one particular horse or trait, the whole picture has to be taken into account. That goes for strain breeding as well IMO :)
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