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USDA Proposal Update- feedback due by 9/26 (email from AHA)


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#11 OHR

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:00 PM

I haven't read the bill. But I do feel that legislation that gets rid of the shoing packages would be a good thing for all breeds, including ours.

See??? Right here! P.A.C.K.A.G.E.S. !!!!! READ!


There's no need to get nasty here, OHR.  The whole point is that this proposal is not just targeting "packages" on show horses.  It makes it illegal to use even a thin pad or any other type shoe than a keg - on any horse - at any time.  Can we please keep our conversations kind and civil?  Everyone has a right to state their beliefs.  This is what these forums are for.  None of us are above learning something new from listening to others viewpoints.

You do, of course, like always, mean those who agree with you. And as long as you people refuse to read what was actually said so you can call people down, don't expect me to kiss you for it.Kind and civil goes both ways. Cloaking insults in soft words never hides the fact they are insults.


I'm betting about now there's a bunch who wish they had left me alone here.


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#12 msjwebb

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:07 PM

I see the problem with the way it is written, but also see WHY it is written as such. Evil people put things under the pads to hide them from inspectors. If this gets passed, then the governing bodies need to look at allowing other options for horses that have issues like soft soles. Something like this http://www.dailymail...thing-past.html
Would give more distance between the bottom of the shoe and the frog without adding weight. What would be nice is if they made a pad that attached to the bottom of this that is removable so only removable pads could be allowed. The inspector could look for foreign objects and the horse could be comfortable. Or allow the easy boot type of shoe. Now that I have typed all of this out, would this cause problems in the endurance community as a easy boot type of shoe could be considered a pad? And those that ride in rocky areas sometimes use thin pads to protect the frog from stone bruises. Not that anyone in their right mind would sore and endurance horse, but the rules would apply to every function.

#13 msjwebb

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:15 PM

Sorry about that.
It says no pads at all.

§ 11.2 Prohibited actions, practices, devices, and substances.
(a) Specific prohibitions. No device, method, practice, or substance shall be used with respect to any horse at any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction if such use causes or can reasonably be expected to cause such horse to be sore. The use of the following devices, equipment, or practices is specifically prohibited with respect to any Tennessee Walking Horse, Racking Horse, or related breed that performs with an accentuated gait that raises concerns about soring at any horse show, horse exhibition, horse sale, or horse auction:

(1) Any action device as defined in § 11.1 is prohibited.

(2) Any pad, wedge, or hoof band is prohibited.

(3) The use of any weight on horses up to 2 years old, except a keg or similar conventional horseshoe is prohibited, as is the use of a horseshoe on horses up to 2 years old that weighs more than 16 ounces.

(4) Artificial extension of the toe length is prohibited.

(5) Any object or material inserted into the hoof other than acceptable hoof packing, which includes pine tar, oakum, live rubber, sponge rubber, silicone, commercial hoof packing or other substances used to maintain adequate frog pressure or sole consistency, is prohibited. Acrylic and other hardening substances are prohibited as hoof packing.

(6) Single or double rocker-bars on the bottom surface of horseshoes which extend more than 1 1/2 inches back from the point of the toe, or any device which would cause, or could reasonably be expected to cause, an unsteadiness of stance in the horse with resulting muscle and tendon strain due to the horse's weight and balance being focused upon a small fulcrum point, are prohibited.[1]

(7) Shoeing a horse, or trimming a horse's hoof in a manner that will cause such horse to suffer, or can reasonably be expected to cause such horse to suffer pain or distress, inflammation, or lameness when walking, trotting, or otherwise moving is prohibited, as is paring out of the frog. Bruising of the hoof or any other method of pressure shoeing is prohibited.

(8) Lead or other weights attached to the outside of the hoof wall or the outside surface of the horseshoe are prohibited. Hollow shoes or artificial extensions filled with mercury or similar substances are prohibited.

(b) Substances. Any substances are prohibited on the limbs of any Tennessee Walking Horse, Racking Horse, or related breed horse that performs with an accentuated gait while being shown, exhibited, or offered for sale, or otherwise present on the grounds at, any horse show, horse exhibition, or horse sale or auction.

© Restrictions on 2-year-old horses. With regard to 2-year-old Tennessee Walking Horses, Racking Horses, and related horse breeds that perform with an accentuated gait that raises concerns about soring (horses eligible to be shown or exhibited in 2-year-old classes), any performances, classes, workouts, or working exhibitions at horse shows, exhibitions, sales or auctions must not exceed a total of 10 minutes continuous workout or performance without a minimum 5-minute rest period between the first such 10-minute period and the second such 10-minute period. More than two such 10-minute periods per performance, class, or workout are prohibited.

#14 OHR

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 02:20 PM

I agree with you that the wording could use clarification on the shoeing. I STILL maintain the packages and excess "padding" need to go to he!! in a handbasket as soon as possible. Yes I AM much more about the horse than the 'show'. Life and health above money and fame, every time.


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#15 tranquilo

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 03:20 PM

I'm all for limiting the use of pads, but I think it's too extreme to say no pads should be used at all. I see protective pads on racehorses, eventers, etc. They do have a purpose other than adding motion. Some of the wording in the proposal is confusing too, saying "no substances on the legs" when I assume they just mean caustic substances (or can we not use fly spray, liniment...?), or "breeds with accentuated gaits" when soring is really only a problem with one particular breed. I do want them to succeed at ending the practice of soring TWH, but I don't like this proposal as it's written now.

 

That said, I do think we need to tighten up our shoeing rules. It's not a good look when pro-Big Lick pages are sharing pictures of extreme Arabian shoes to defend their own practices. Hopefully trainers won't fight so hard next time there's a shoeing resolution at convention. Personally, I would rather we clean up our own rules than have the USDA deciding how every horse needs to be shod.



#16 OHR

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Posted 26 September 2016 - 03:25 PM

How many times has AHA had the chance to. "clean up our own rules" only to kowtow to the big names who run the show? THEY aren't going to back down without force.


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#17 kcranford

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 07:40 AM

This letter was directed to USDA by a knowledgeable veterinarian.  I think it speaks, from an educated viewpoint, what so many of us have been trying to say.

 

Super concise and educational response to the USDA from Scott Bennett, DVM. Many of us know Scott and have used him regularly. Please thank him for his support!

To All Concerned, 
I am a veterinarian involved with a multitude of disciplines in the horse industry. This includes American Saddlebreds, Morgans, Hackney horses and ponies, Arabians, Quarter horses, Friesians, Dutch Harness Horses, and jumping as well as Dressage disciplines. In other words, breeds that trot. My emphasis is sports and regenerative medicine and I have published numerous scientific articles and chapters in textbooks.
With consideration of the proposed USDA phraseology concerning the use of pads in show breeds of horses, it must be realized that the breeds that trot as mentioned above rely on soundness of movement which does not involve or can be accomplished with pain. Breeds that trot thus are quite different from the Walking Horse with which the bill is primarily concerned. To include breeds that trot in this bill for governmental regulation is an unjustified overreach and lacks necessity without foundation.
I have been working with horses with normal shoeing and pads for thirty nine years and do not consider it abusive or detrimental in any manner and is integral in the proper distribution of concussion. The high action breeds are bred for their movement and shoeing with normal pads protects form the concussion that develops from the movement they naturally exhibit too often in an environment surrounded by less than satisfactory ground surface for ambulation. These horses like all horses, are concussive animals by nature becoming more exceptional with their motion from genetics, not gimmick shoeing. Many of the most talented athletic horses I know wear very light shoes and if not protected would damage themselves rapidly in the man-made environment of most venues. Perhaps it would make just as much sense to have governmental regulations concerning concrete and asphalt at such venues.
Please consider that construction worker shoes are heavier than any shoe I see employed with these horses. By your phraseology with this bill, any construction worker or person wearing leather shoes and even gym shoes would be out of compliance subject to governmental sanctions and ambiguous interpretation, if they were a horse.
One of the reasons I enjoy the trotting breeds is that they remain active into their 20's in age. So, if their shoeing is so detrimental, that would be a difficult subject to show a reasonable argument.
In summary, I believe it would be more abusive to subject the "trotting" breeds to governmental regulation when the government has no idea of the dynamics and distribution of concussion concerning the equine athlete. The impact of taking away the ability to protect these wonderful athletes from proper distribution of concussion would be a devastatingly brutal effect of possible misinterpretation and misapplication of the bill as currently phrased.

Sincerely,
Scott Bennett DVM

 
 
 
 
 
 

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Dr. Russell & Kathy Cranford
"We were created by an Artist. We are meant to live beautifully every day."

#18 OHR

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 08:22 AM

Notice that "shoeing with NORMAL pads" is repeated many times. He is NOT addressing the "many pads" stacks and clamps worn by so many. I have worn "construction worker shoes", as a crew foreman, and I have picked up a pad stack with attached shoe. MY boot weighed 14 ounces............my foot being almost twice the size of a horse's.


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#19 kcranford

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 10:33 AM

Some further valid points about the HPA proposed action:

 

Key Points to Know About the HPA Rule:

1. The proposed rule includes a TOTAL ban on the use of pads, bands, and wedges, at any horse show, exhibition, sale, or auction. In addition, the rule was recently revised to prohibit the use of any weight except a keg shoe on a horse.

2. The proposed rule will also ban any substance or agent applied to a horse’s limbs either before or after a horse is shown, exhibited, or offered for sale at a horse show, exhibition, sale, or auction. This rule would ban fly spray, Show Sheen, topical ointments, and any other products routinely applied to horses that promote their overall health and well being.

3. The proposed rule would open up horse shows to random inspections by APHIS inspectors, who are NOT required to be veterinarians or farriers. These inspectors will be able to determine, on their own merit, if a horse is sore and can disqualify it from competition. 

 

Words fail me for how ridiculous item 2 is.  No fly spray?  Seriously?  And also the fact that these inspectors no longer are mandated to be veterinarians or farriers (which they are as of now).  This entire debaucle reeks of HSUS propaganda, with their ultimate goal of course to completely eliminate the exhibition and ownership of any form of livestock.  Their mantra of "let them roam free" also is telling about their level of awareness of what would happen to most animals who were "set free".  Holy cow.....

 

 

 

 


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Arabian Show Horses
Dr. Russell & Kathy Cranford
"We were created by an Artist. We are meant to live beautifully every day."

#20 Dreamcatcher

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Posted 28 September 2016 - 10:40 AM

I'm not involved with any kind of gaiting or high stepping and mostly don't get involved in this kind of discussion.  After reading this bill though, it SERIOUSLY seems to be way over reaching.  No more liniment (Vetrolin), no fly spray?  No pads at all?  All of mine are bare foot right now, but I remember a not too long ago day when my old QH needed the cushion from some pads. It just seems like some AR nut got the ear of some clueless politico who got some clueless guy at APHIS to push this because all the pretty ponies are sufferin' so.....without having any inkling of what is or can be good bad or indifferent.  I hope this gets squashed. 


Pat Lowe