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#1 Aden

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:49 PM

Hi everyone,
I've always been an Arabian fan, but while young just appreciated them as horses. Digging a little deeper if I wanted to produce something in the Arabian world... Well, the names and strains are putting something similar to writer's block in my brain sometimes. Some of the websites are not very... beginner friendly?
I will warn ahead and this could be long winded and all over the place and if you make it through that's great and I apologize in advance. I'm working on my orginization skills and my mind seems to be the toughest.

Its been an interesting time looking into the world of Arabians and I think if I were to settle on breeding a 'type', it would be CMK. I love the fact that most of them have incredible minds, nice short backs, big round croups, low hocks and a great shoulder. Most are pretty, but I guess this is least important in performance prospects.
The lines I find most often catching my eyes are the Aurab, Raffon (I adore Raffons Abida), Skowronek, and Mesaoud.

Part of my confusion is coming from "parts" of the CMK tag - Blunt, Crabbet, Davenport, Al Khasma, American Foundation.

Are these just different names for herds that were imported by different people?
When I think of CMK, I think of Aulrab and Lewisfield Magic and and Ben Rabba, .
Crabbet / Davenport Arabians seems to be more Tripoli and Antez related and imported by Homer Davenport.
Blunt is a breeding programs established by Lady Anne Blunt, where Mesaoud was used.
What enables a horse to be American Foundation? I was told the likes of Khemosabi / Muscat fell in this category? Is there a list of American Foundation horses?
Belesemo Trad bred horses are CMK?

Al Khasma I always associated with Straight Eygptians. But I guess that is just a group of horses that were bred by the Beoudins? I've seen Crabbets listed as Al Khasma and 100%CMK but never a 100%CMK Aurab bred horse advertised as either Crabbet or Al Khasma. Is this just the breeder's choice on how to advertise?

So is CMK just a combination of all these three programs together? I just never see them bred together - Aulrab horses tend to be linebred Aulrab, Crabbet advertised horses have no Aulrab.. etc.
Is this just to preserve the programs?

This sort of leads me into my second advice/information scheme (Ah, I know... I"m sorry...) of out crossing.

I noticed that Khemosabi has certain lines that trace back to the CMK lines, but I've never seen him advertised as such. Is he not a CMK horse? Or is he American Foundation?

Aside from CMK horses, I've always love Khemosabi, Muscat, Xenophonn, Hesa Zee, Matt Dillon (I guess he is sort of CMK, right?)..

If one were looking at starting a program (let's say for Reining, Working Cow, Western Pleasure) would you reccomend those bloodlines as an outcross for CMK horses? I know that finding the right mare to compliment the rigth stallion and fix faults is key, but do you think those bloodlines would produce performance prospects?
Or should one stay with pure CMK? Or cross Aulrab breed horses with Al-Marah bred horses?


I'm going to stop there because... I'm sure if you made this far you're praying I'm done. I've still got a lot of growing and learning to do yet, so please excuse my ignorance... I'm not yet near any danger of contributing to the Arabian gene pool - haven't yet owned a horse, actually - but I know they are big investments and if I get involved, I want to make sure I do it right.

Thanks to everyone who made it through this... I'm sure it wasn't easy.

Aden

#2 ladycascabel

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 01:58 PM

Aden, I will leave your bloodline questions to those with more expertise, but please let me say welcome to ABN and I wish you the very best in your quest for knowledge. This is a great place to come for mentoring in the breeding direction you want to go.

Mary Logan

www.cascabelranch.com

Proud of our family of working western athletes: Arabians, Half-arabs, National Foundation Quarter Horses.
Producers of all-natural grass-fed beef.

The Arabian and Half-arab Fam:
 

WCF Rampage+/ bay purebred gelding

TS Paarden Mia chestnut purebred mare
HAA Marco Rojo chestnut Classical Spanish gelding
SA Firefoxx chestnut purebred gelding
OFW Carnation bay purebred mare
Skyy RPA amber champagne HA mare
Goldenseal MSL palomino HA gelding


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#3 skymare

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 02:37 PM

Hi Aden, Welcome. I too cannot contribute to this discussion as I'm Australian and we don't have CMK horses here (except Aur Vanity who is now deceased) I am a Pure Crabbet breeder. Just bred my first foal after waiting 20 years for my dreamt o come true. I applaud your enthusiasm, but don't get ahead of yourself. Before you consider breeding just own a horse for a while first. Go out, buy a lovely quiet, even aged Arabian that's done it all. Learn all the aspects of owning one horse and gain experience. You need it. Because breeding and handling broodmares and training foals is NOT easy. Only the experienced should breed. So by all means ask questions, but put breeding aspirations on hold for a while until you've owned a horse for a while. Then you can appreciate what might be involved much more. Now is a good time to buy too as the market is dead and valuable horses are being given away. But PLEASE don't go for flashy for your first horse. Go for sound and sane and safe.
I'm sure there are others here who can answer your question re CMK. Good Luck!
Breeder of Pure Crabbet Arabians.
Mill Park Anabella (Mill Park Amastar x Millbanda Bellalina)

Farnaway Golightly(pend) Colt by Senussi.

#4 Aden

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 03:14 PM

Thanks Lady and Skymare.
Honestly, I have no plans of breeding...near nor near future, far as I can see. This is all hypothetical, and pedigree wise I'm curious if my theories would work..
I'm aware that I'm in no position to breed - I volunteer for chores and halter training for riding, and that's good for me right now. I'm merely curious.

The Crabbet I knew of in Australia was Karello Ciska, at 91%, and his daughter, but he never came up with a pedigree. http://www.starwood.com.au/9.html

Now I'm still confused as to why I see Crabbet horses referred to as 100% CMK but never a 100% CMK horse advertised as Crabbet? I have a feeling I missed something obvious.

#5 felina

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:08 PM

A Crabbet horse is of course, 100% CMK, but a CMK horse isn't necessarily 100% Crabbet, since it can have Maynesboro or Kellogg breeding. Those programs didn't stick to straight Crabbet imports.

Does that point make sense?

http://www.arabianho...story_intro.asp
Have you glanced at this. It has some of the early import history in it as well.
Look back on our struggle for freedom,
Trace our present day's strength to its source;
And you'll find that man's pathway to glory
Is strewn with the bones of a horse.
Anonymous

#6 felina

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:15 PM

*Muscat was imported from Russia, so is a pure Russian Arabian.

However, there are aspects of his pedigree that are also found in Crabbet pedigrees. Look and you will find Skowronek on his sire's side, who of course, was an influential Crabbet Park Stud stallion.

Here is another page with her definitions of different programs and how they separate.
http://www.meranch.com/books/pctgs.htm

And then, for example, the breakdown of Khemosabi
http://www.meranch.c...pctgs.htm#khemo
Look back on our struggle for freedom,
Trace our present day's strength to its source;
And you'll find that man's pathway to glory
Is strewn with the bones of a horse.
Anonymous

#7 kaartila

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:24 PM

I don't have much input, just an example from my program of my Hesa Zee +/ mare crossed with my Crabbet/Babson stallion:

:
http://aartilaarabians.com/sheza.html
Keila Aartila
Aartila Arabians

#8 missouripassage

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 04:29 PM

A CMK horse is not the same as a Crabbet horse - although people do sometimes use the terms interchangably. A Crabbet horse should trace in all lines to ONLY horses bred at Crabbet. CMK are usually mostly Crabbet but also have some early American imports as well; "A CMK Arabian must still carry a minimum 75% by pedigree of CMK founder ancestry as above. It must also trace in tail male to a CMK sire line, as summarized in the third CMK Heritage Catalogue of 1992, and in tail female to a family established in North America by 1950." Pure Crabbet horses are increasingly rare - check other threads for the lowwww # of horses in existence that are of 100% Crabbet breeding; it is very depressing & distressing! :(

A Davenport should trace in all lines to horses used in the Homer Davenport program. So a Crabbet/ Davenport would be a horse that traces 100% to horses bred at Crabbet & Davenport. A Crabbet/Davenport would also likely qualify as CMK.
Al Khamsa has it's own set of "rules" - all Straight Egyptians and Davenports are considered Al Khamsa, as are (I believe) all Crabbet horses that are non-Skowronek (he was a Polish horse and controversial amongst some "purist" breeders).

As to your individual stallions:
I believe Khemosabi would be considered CMK - or pretty darn close - he has a *Raseyn (from Crabbet) sire line, and a Davenport tail female. He is at least 1/4 Polish thru his granddam, the Polish import *Szarza, and has some additional Polish thru *Kastelanka, as well as some Egyptian thru *Fadl.
*Muscat was imported from Russia and not considered CMK, Al Khamsa, etc. but Straight Russian. Like all Russian horses though, most, if not all, of his ancestors are from Poland and Crabbet.
Xenophonn would be considered Early American Foundation (I believe) - he is not CMK as his grandsire *Witez II is Polish. The rest of his pedigree would be considered CMK. His son Hesa Zee is the same - he has the same Polish sire line, with additional Polish thru his grandsire Gay Apollo. I would call these horses Polish/CMK.
By Matt Dillon I'm guessing you mean Al-Marah Matt Dillon - he is considered CMK; both his sire line & tail female, as well as most of his ancestry, is from Crabbet.

I see now that others have replied along the same lines, sorry for any redundancy! ;)

And then, for example, the breakdown of Khemosabi
http://www.meranch.c...pctgs.htm#khemo


Ah, so there we have it: Khemo is NOT CMK but he is American Foundation. Thank you!! Sure wish Eva was still doing these, they were fascinating to have!

#9 skymare

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Posted 23 December 2012 - 10:33 PM

I've not heard of Karello Ciska. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Many people do not campaign their stallions. So I guess, in a loose term of the definition, I kinda breed CMK too. ;)
Breeder of Pure Crabbet Arabians.
Mill Park Anabella (Mill Park Amastar x Millbanda Bellalina)

Farnaway Golightly(pend) Colt by Senussi.

#10 siiamese

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Posted 24 December 2012 - 06:34 AM

Aden
Where are you located? Depending on that answer, you might be able to go and visit and talk with people who currently breed, train and show the type horses and disciplines that you are interested in. Maybe then spend some time with those and see if it is actually what you will want in your future. A lot of people think they want one thing then after they get into it discover they really like another aspect better. There are any number of farms and trainers who would be willing to help you out and maybe let you get some hands on experience while you are taking the time to learn