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Will too much white become a problem?


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#1 skymare

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 05:58 PM

It seems every Crabbet you meet has white markings. Now the more you breed those white markings the higher the sabino creeps. Normally I love that, but I have started wondering if in the future the sabino becomes so prevalent that we end up with all these highly marked sabino horses and then we start finding ourselves with horses like Boomori Simply Stunning. Maximum sabino who can't breed a purebred. Last week the stallion I'm trying to breed with, a chestnut, flaxened, lots of white guy sired a purebred with a blue eye. Not pure Crabbet, but high percentage. That's great, but we have a limited gene pool with A LOT of sabino. I'm concerned we're going to end up breeding our selves into a corner. I'm thinking the next mare I buy will have as little white as I can find. But I fear it will not be possible to fine one with NO white. And then breed to a stallion with no white.
What do you guys think?
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#2 Nicole&Reannon

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 06:27 PM

Do we really know if Moomori Simply Stunning is actually a Max Sabino, or is he a Dominant White? And regardless we don't know what gene he carries and why it is causing probably when bred to PB mares. So I'm not sure we can blame Sabino... not only that but the bloodlines in Australia are far more concentrated than in other areas, so there may be some recessive issues in those specific lines or mutations that are occuring. More research would really need to be done to confirm anything.

A blue eye to me would suggest Splash being present, not Sabino.
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#3 Stanislav

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 07:22 PM

What do you mean he can't sire a purebred? Now with DNA testing, white is no longer to be feared and can even be embraced! If you look at the sabino and splash arabians such as Khartoon Klassic and his many colored get, it is possible to have white and a nicely put together arabian. There certainly are krazy kolor breeders that couldn't pay me to have a horse from their breeding program, but there are also proven moderate to maximum sabino mares and stallions that have plenty of white, but have the conformation and temperment to stand up to the "big boys" and still walk away with ribbons at big USEF recognized shows.

So, if you like color, don't be afraid to use a stallion with some (as long as you would still breed to him if he was a plain bay with no markings)!!!

#4 Mystic Rose

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 08:25 PM

What do you mean he can't sire a purebred? Now with DNA testing, white is no longer to be feared and can even be embraced! If you look at the sabino and splash arabians such as Khartoon Klassic and his many colored get, it is possible to have white and a nicely put together arabian. There certainly are krazy kolor breeders that couldn't pay me to have a horse from their breeding program, but there are also proven moderate to maximum sabino mares and stallions that have plenty of white, but have the conformation and temperment to stand up to the "big boys" and still walk away with ribbons at big USEF recognized shows.

So, if you like color, don't be afraid to use a stallion with some (as long as you would still breed to him if he was a plain bay with no markings)!!!



The stallion she referred too apparently had 'white' foals with severe birth defects, when bred to purebred arabs, and it is believed that is associated with his color. I don't recall details - but I know i read that somewhere.

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#5 Maigray

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 09:08 PM

Well, the vast majority of horses have white markings which can be called "sabino." Sabino is just a generic name for any white marking - anything at all - that is not believed to be caused by any other white pattern. The only actual gene ever found that was classed as sabino was named Sabino-1, and it has never been found in Arabians.

Boomori Simply Stunning is the only example of a white horse I know of in this breed who has ever passed on congenital defects that might be related to his white markings. Is there any other Arabian that has been known to do this? Is there any other horse in the domestic population - besides those who carry the frame mutation - which have been known to pass on congenital birth defects along with white markings?

In his case, I think it is more likely he had a dominant white mutation, or possibly even a new white pattern mutation altogether. There are now 12 dominant white mutations recognized and it is almost certain there are many more out there. A dominant white mutation has basically the same phenotype as sabino. Dominant white mutations are theorized to be lethal in homozygous form because of their nature. But each mutation is distinct. The researchers noted in the paper that at least some of the mutations might or might not not be lethal in homozygous form - they could not know for certain. It is not that big a leap to think that a new mutation could have more serious consequences.

But there are lots of questions to think about..Why did the stallion survive and the offspring did not? Was the color even related at all? Was it just bad luck? We don't really know enough to say for certain.

It's possible this is another form of sabino, and it would be called sabino-2. But it would not be the same thing as sabino-1, or other forms of "sabino."

Basically, I would not be afraid of white markings. Most of the domestic horse population has them. We don't really know what happened with Boormori Simply Stunning, but whatever it is, it is not being passed along, and it's not being duplicated by other white horses (that I know of). I do think it's worthwhile to establish a wider gene pool though, and if your criteria for doing so is "no white markings" that is fine. It probably is hard to find them nowadays!

#6 Rumonek

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Posted 15 January 2011 - 09:13 PM

Splash causes blue eyes, not Sabino, so the stallion and/or mare are at least carrying splash.

I do not feel breeding Splash, Sabino, etc... is breeding "into a corner" as long as one continues to use different lines. The problem with the idea of "breeding one with no white" is that they very well could still be carrying splash or sabino. Many think that high whites are what constitutes a sabino and that's not the case- something as little as a lopsided star can signal splash, and a lopsided snip sabino.

For example, this horse is splash:
Posted Image

This horse is splash and has hardly any leg white and a blaze:
Posted Image

Splash:
Posted Image

Also-
Why do you feel it would be impossible to find a mare with no white?
I own a black with no white...

Posted Image

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#7 skymare

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 01:41 AM

Splash causes blue eyes, not Sabino, so the stallion and/or mare are at least carrying splash.

I do not feel breeding Splash, Sabino, etc... is breeding "into a corner" as long as one continues to use different lines. The problem with the idea of "breeding one with no white" is that they very well could still be carrying splash or sabino. Many think that high whites are what constitutes a sabino and that's not the case- something as little as a lopsided star can signal splash, and a lopsided snip sabino.

For example, this horse is splash:
Posted Image

This horse is splash and has hardly any leg white and a blaze:
Posted Image

Splash:
Posted Image

Also-
Why do you feel it would be impossible to find a mare with no white?
I own a black with no white...



Sorry i'm talking about pure crabbets only. I've not heard of any black crabbets. i was thinking into the FAR future and how things could pan out with possible mutations and a small gene pool.
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Farnaway Golightly(pend) Colt by Senussi.

#8 darkangel

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 04:01 AM

This is one of Boomori Simply Stunning`s (x Nerine) purebred foals.. She is registered as a chestnut sabino, her name is Just A Dream..

Just_A_Dream.jpg

I think out of the five purebreds he had only two survived :(
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#9 Peter Mileo

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Posted 16 January 2011 - 05:34 PM

It seems every Crabbet you meet has white markings. Now the more you breed those white markings the higher the sabino creeps. Normally I love that, but I have started wondering if in the future the sabino becomes so prevalent that we end up with all these highly marked sabino horses and then we start finding ourselves with horses like Boomori Simply Stunning. Maximum sabino who can't breed a purebred. Last week the stallion I'm trying to breed with, a chestnut, flaxened, lots of white guy sired a purebred with a blue eye. Not pure Crabbet, but high percentage. That's great, but we have a limited gene pool with A LOT of sabino. I'm concerned we're going to end up breeding our selves into a corner. I'm thinking the next mare I buy will have as little white as I can find. But I fear it will not be possible to fine one with NO white. And then breed to a stallion with no white.
What do you guys think?


Have you considered Shahwan Park's Arfaja Sarif? He is bay with what I would call normal markings. He is not siring tons of white all the time and I am liking what he sires. Jennifer had a bay colt foaled recently by him that looks to be VERY nice.

www.shahwanparkarabians.com.au

Regards,
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City Slicker Ranch, Home of Magic Aulrab, 1993 Chestnut Stallion SCID and CA Clear and Constantene, 2006 Pure Polish Grey Arabian Stallion SCID Clear, CA Carrier, LFS Clear and Homozygous for Grey


#10 rdbboo

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Posted 17 January 2011 - 04:58 PM

I wouldn't be worried about too much white. I think Boomori Simply Stunning is a special case. Arabs with lots of white have been around for many years and as healthy and reproductive as the next horse. If one of your mares has a lot of white then maybe try to find a stallion with less flashy markings. Finding a Pure Crabbet with no white might be a little more difficult but minimal white is much easier found especially in bays.

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