Jump to content


Photo

Gondolier


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
30 replies to this topic

#1 VanAlma

VanAlma

    Kate Smutnick

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,367 posts

Posted 08 November 2009 - 07:15 AM

I am a TOTAL fish out of water here. :blush: I have someone interested in my colt who wants to trade a filly with Gondolier lines coming in through her dam. I know his show record but can't seem to find much about his type, temperment, and qualities he passes on. Anything would be helpful including bad qualities. I know the filly's sire line so am very confident on my knowledge of what she's getting there, so am particularly interested in legs, feet, shoulder and impulsion. Thanks!

#2 Cyclone

Cyclone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8,506 posts

Posted 08 November 2009 - 09:11 AM

I am a TOTAL fish out of water here. :blush: I have someone interested in my colt who wants to trade a filly with Gondolier lines coming in through her dam. I know his show record but can't seem to find much about his type, temperment, and qualities he passes on. Anything would be helpful including bad qualities. I know the filly's sire line so am very confident on my knowledge of what she's getting there, so am particularly interested in legs, feet, shoulder and impulsion. Thanks!


I might be *Gondolier's biggest fan on earth. Although I am no fan of the Aswan lines, I still have some in my herd and one of them comes through my *Gondolier daughter, bred by his owners, Magness Arabians. She is La Banditta and is typical, IMO, of his get. She is a square tank. Huge hip, perfect feet/legs, tad short in the neck, but well made, plain headed, good eye, wide chest, ribcage, tight, short back and loins. In essence, a super working western type mare. She can sit and spin a hole to China and rollback at the drop of a hat. Quiet, gentle, sensible, not prone to flightiness at all. She is small, about 14.1 and uber stout. Tough as nails, keeps on air. I would take five *Gondolier daughters if I had the money and the room. My *Bask daughter - while owned by Magness - was bred many times to *Gondolier (four? five?) and every one shown was a multi US/CAN open/aotr Natl. Ch. in multiple disciplines w/many diff. riders each. Quite a testament to disposition, trainability, durability, versatility and athletic capability. Amazing animals. Here is a rather poor pic of my *Gondolier daughter, Banditta.

Cyclone

Attached Images

  • banditta5.jpg

Beannacht Arabian Ranch

Pure Polish working western and sport horse prospects

Home of Pure Polish stallion, Vezanka (*Veza X *Suzanka)

www.beannachtarabianranch.net

Bronntanas - Animal Communicator

#3 Arlene Magid

Arlene Magid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts

Posted 08 November 2009 - 09:49 AM

I might be *Gondolier's biggest fan on earth. Although I am no fan of the Aswan lines, I still have some in my herd and one of them comes through my *Gondolier daughter, bred by his owners, Magness Arabians. She is La Banditta and is typical, IMO, of his get. She is a square tank. Huge hip, perfect feet/legs, tad short in the neck, but well made, plain headed, good eye, wide chest, ribcage, tight, short back and loins. In essence, a super working western type mare. She can sit and spin a hole to China and rollback at the drop of a hat. Quiet, gentle, sensible, not prone to flightiness at all. She is small, about 14.1 and uber stout. Tough as nails, keeps on air. I would take five *Gondolier daughters if I had the money and the room. My *Bask daughter - while owned by Magness - was bred many times to *Gondolier (four? five?) and every one shown was a multi US/CAN open/aotr Natl. Ch. in multiple disciplines w/many diff. riders each. Quite a testament to disposition, trainability, durability, versatility and athletic capability. Amazing animals. Here is a rather poor pic of my *Gondolier daughter, Banditta.

Cyclone


I completely agree with Cyclone. *Gondolier is a real force for breeding athletes, and at this year's National shows five of the top ten reiners (Imari MA, Baskczar, Flash MA, Slide N Style and Pepiliero) are all *Gondolier grandget, and all but Baskczar are out of *Gondolier daughters. Slide N Style had his first National win this year in the Reining Futurity but all the others I mentioned are multiple National winners.

If you want athleticism, having *Gondolier as a broodmare sire is a mighty fine idea.


 


#4 mhtokay

mhtokay

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,408 posts

Posted 08 November 2009 - 11:00 AM

My younger reining mare is out of a granddaughter. That mare didn't do much. a little racing a little endurance. but she has several full brothers who raced more and did a fair amount of endurance racing. My mare has "issues".. worry wart and lots of baggage.... but I certainly wouldn't blame *Gondolier, LOL... too far back. I wouldn't be afraid of it, I've always heard good things about him.

.if you're an AHA member... go there and log in. Go to "Progeny performance records for sweespstakes Nominated sires and dams". Since he's an older horse, you can get a real feel for his strong siring areas. Here's a copy and paste of the summary, but all his offspring are listed individually.

Arabian Mare Breeding Section 70
Arabian Stallion Breeding Section 6.5
Arabian Gelding In-Hand Section 57
Arabian Sport Horse Gelding Section 12
Arabian Park Horse Section 85.5
Arabian English Pleasure Section 2
Arabian Country English Pleasure Section 239.5
Arabian Country Pleasure Driving Section .5
Arabian Mounted Native Costume Section 6
Arabian Ladies Side Saddle Section 16.5
Arabian Western Pleasure Section 524.5
Arabian Trail Horse Section 540
Arabian Reining Horse Section 1428.5
Arabian Cutting Section 20.5
Arabian Working Cow Horse Section 36.5
Arabian Regular Working Hunter Section 18.5
Arabian Jumper Section 26
Arabian Hunter Pleasure Section 350
Arabian English Show Hack Section 39.5
Arabian Sport Horse Under Saddle Section 4
Arabian Sport Horse Show Hack Section 13
Arabian Hunter Hack Section 29.5
Arabian Western Riding Section 1.5
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage Training Level Section 174
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage First Level Section 60
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage Second Level Section 23
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage Third Level Section 33
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage Fourth Level Section 66
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Dressage Pri xSt George Section 27
Arabian/Half-Arabian/Anglo-Arabian Walk-Trot Pleasure Section 77
UPHA Arabian Breeds Challenge Cup Walk-Trot Section .5
Walk-Trot Equitation Section 139.5
Halter Showmanship Section 24
Saddle Seat Equitation Section 12
Western/Reining Seat Equitation Section 426
Hunter Seat Equitation Not to Jump Section 16.5
Western Horsemanship Section 202.5
Endurance Section 2
Arabian English Trail Horse Section 13.5

#5 Cyclone

Cyclone

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 8,506 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 12:54 AM

I completely agree with Cyclone. *Gondolier is a real force for breeding athletes, and at this year's National shows five of the top ten reiners (Imari MA, Baskczar, Flash MA, Slide N Style and Pepiliero) are all *Gondolier grandget, and all but Baskczar are out of *Gondolier daughters. Slide N Style had his first National win this year in the Reining Futurity but all the others I mentioned are multiple National winners.

If you want athleticism, having *Gondolier as a broodmare sire is a mighty fine idea.


Thanks, Arlene! My *Bask dtr., Mark IV Evergreen, is an icon in and of herself, producing the above multi US/CAN NATL. Ch.'s. And all sired by himself, *Gondolier! As far as I am concerned, he is THE premier ww sire of PP lines!! Appreciate your input, Arlene, as always!

Cyclone
Beannacht Arabian Ranch

Pure Polish working western and sport horse prospects

Home of Pure Polish stallion, Vezanka (*Veza X *Suzanka)

www.beannachtarabianranch.net

Bronntanas - Animal Communicator

#6 Arlene Magid

Arlene Magid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 03:59 AM

Thanks, Arlene! My *Bask dtr., Mark IV Evergreen, is an icon in and of herself, producing the above multi US/CAN NATL. Ch.'s. And all sired by himself, *Gondolier! As far as I am concerned, he is THE premier ww sire of PP lines!! Appreciate your input, Arlene, as always!

Cyclone



You're very welcome. I have never done formal research on *Gondolier, just am aware of how very important a sire he was for athletes and how his presence in a pedigree can enhance talent. And I hope now that I will be doing horse research full time to produce an e-book on *Bask++, so Mark IV Evergreen will get her due writeup in there <smile>. It will be a while before I can put it together, want to include info on every *Bask++ get born so you can imagine the scope of the project!


 


#7 VanAlma

VanAlma

    Kate Smutnick

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,367 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:04 AM

Thanks for the great input. I just saw the filly and her dam yesterday. The mare is actually a granddaugther of Gondolier and Makhsous and was a trotting machine with a very deep hip, huge shoulder, pretty head, and great legs & feet. The only thing I didn't like about her was she has very high withers - almost odd looking but she is actively used as a riding horse so doesn't seem to be too much of a problem. Her phenotype definitely followed the Polish & Crabbet in her breeding. Interesting that reiners were mentioned, this mare would make a fantastic reiner: isn't leggy, is way underneath herself etc. But, from what the guy has told me, garnered some endurance points and he currently uses her as a trail horse. Actually, while I'm here and some of you have datasource, could you look up Vintage Liera and let me know if she did, in fact, get endurance points? It will be helpful in my decision to trade my colt for the filly out of her - who is quite nice I might add. She is Egyptian sired so is prettier and more elegant than her mama but has retained the substance and CLEAN legs and feet. Never been trimmed and were pretty much balanced and perfect at 9 months.This man would actually breed Vintage Leira to my colt for a few babies. Well, I'm done rambling. Thanks all who have posted. It is very appreciated. :bigemo_harabe_net-108:

#8 Arlene Magid

Arlene Magid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 2,665 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:33 AM

Thanks for the great input. I just saw the filly and her dam yesterday. The mare is actually a granddaugther of Gondolier and Makhsous and was a trotting machine with a very deep hip, huge shoulder, pretty head, and great legs & feet. The only thing I didn't like about her was she has very high withers - almost odd looking but she is actively used as a riding horse so doesn't seem to be too much of a problem. Her phenotype definitely followed the Polish & Crabbet in her breeding. Interesting that reiners were mentioned, this mare would make a fantastic reiner: isn't leggy, is way underneath herself etc. But, from what the guy has told me, garnered some endurance points and he currently uses her as a trail horse. Actually, while I'm here and some of you have datasource, could you look up Vintage Liera and let me know if she did, in fact, get endurance points? It will be helpful in my decision to trade my colt for the filly out of her - who is quite nice I might add. She is Egyptian sired so is prettier and more elegant than her mama but has retained the substance and CLEAN legs and feet. Never been trimmed and were pretty much balanced and perfect at 9 months.This man would actually breed Vintage Leira to my colt for a few babies. Well, I'm done rambling. Thanks all who have posted. It is very appreciated. :bigemo_harabe_net-108:


If Vintage Liera got some endurance points they aren't recorded on Datasource-but achievements sometimes are not accurate there as I'm sure you've been told.

Sounds like a good deal for you.

Here's some information on Makhsous for you to think about, from a writeup I did for a client a couple of years ago. Please don't reuse it without accrediting it to me, however.

MAKHSOUS is the sire of 8 National winners. His National winners in halter are MAKHNIFICENT KA (the only straight Egyptian to be named a U.S. Top Ten Sweepstakes Colt and Futurity Colt), U.S. Top Ten Futurity Colt MAAHRUS+, Canadian Reserve National Champion Futurity Colt ZAARIF and U.S. National Champion Futurity Colt KURAAFI. MAKHSOUS’ National winners in performance are U.S. Top Ten Hunt Pleasure Futurity BODACIOUS KA (also a Region 6 Top Five Sweepstakes Colt), U.S. Top Ten First Level Dressage AOTR and Second Level Dressage ATR KA FIRST KNIGHT++/, twice U.S. National Champion Western Pleasure Walk/Trot and U.S. Top Ten Western Pleasure JTR 13/Under BINT HADDIYAH+/, and twice U.S. National Champion Working Cow Horse AOTR, twice U.S. Reserve National Champion Working Cow Horse AOTR and four times U.S. Top Ten Working Cow Horse ZIBA JALISA+. MAKHSOUS get have produced National winners as well. His son DAVINCI KA is the sire of 2005 U.A.E. Junior Champion Filly R.S. KASIBA. His son CALYPSO DANCE is the sire of U.S. Top Ten Stallion AOTH KMF ALI CALYPSO, and his daughter SCHEHERAZADD is the dam of three National winners: Canadian Top Ten Futurity Filly SCHAARIKA, U.S. Top Ten Mare JOTH ROHARA DIVA, and U.S. Top Ten Futurity Filly and Mare AOTH ROHARA SHAHZADDA.

MAKHSOUS’ sire *SULTANN is sought after for his proven record as a sire and grandsire of top flight performance horses. *SULTANN sired three National Champions: U.S. National Champion Sidesaddle and Reserve National Champion Native Costume *MANZOURA, 14 time National winner *SAKR+++ (a multi-National Champion in park and native costume as well as a U.S. Top Ten Stallion), and *ASADD++, the only straight Egyptian stallion to be a U.S National Champion Stallion and also a U.S. National Champion in performance (English pleasure). The *SULTANN sire line remains strong in modern Egyptian breeding. *SAKR+++ sired National Champions in halter and performance and his get have produced National winners in park, English pleasure AOTR, hunt pleasure, sidesaddle, a multi-National Champion in dressage, and two National Champions in western pleasure. His son NABIEL+/ was for a time the leading living Egyptian sire of champions. *ASADD++ sired National Champions in halter and English pleasure and his get have produced National winners in park, English pleasure, western pleasure, cutting and dressage.*SULTANN also sired multi-regional halter champion *MOATASIM, a 3/4 brother to MAKHSOUS, sire of U.S. National Champion Futurity Filly PR MORISA and U.S. Top Ten Sidesaddle RIO GRAND+.

*SULTANN is a full brother to *SAFAA, dam of U.S. Reserve National Champion Futurity Filly and Top Ten Western Pleasure MUZAHRAFA++ and U.S. Top Five Futurity Colt AL FATTAH (sire of U.S. Top Ten Hunter and Jumper ARABANA DIXANNE and U.S. Top Ten Gelding EL JEBELL). *SULTANN is by SAMEH, sire of three National winners in halter including U.S. National Champion Mare *SERENITY SONBOLAH. Eight SAMEH get have produced National winners. *SULTANN’s dam LUBNA is a full sister to MABROUKA (dam of National Champion producer *ANSATA BINT MABROUKA and *MORAFIC, the leading imported Egyptian sire of National winners and National winner producers), and to MOUNA (dam of *BINT MONA, the only imported Egyptian mare to produce 4 National winners).

MAKHSOUS is out of *NABDA, also dam of multi-halter champion WALAD NAGID (a ribbon winner in hunt pleasure, western pleasure and country pleasure). *NABDA is a 3/4 sister to U.S. National Champion Western Pleasure and Top Ten English Pleasure *NIHAL++ and to *RAMSES NAGDIA, whose daughter RAMSES TINAH is the dam of Australian Reserve National Champion Mare SIMEON SHUALA (herself dam of New Zealand National Champion Stallion SIMEON SHEMINI and of Australian Junior Champion Filly SIMEON SHIRAZ). RAMSES TINAH also produced SIMEON SHARAV, the 2004 Egyptian International Show Champion Stallion and 2005 Egyptian Event Europe Reserve Champion Stallion. *NABDA is by WAHAG, a full brother to *KAHRAMANA, dam of five champions including U.S National Champion Futurity Colt and Top Ten English Pleasure IBN MORAFIC+++ (sire of National Champions in halter, working cow horse. cutting and hunt pleasure) *KAHRAMANA has three offspring who have produced National winners, including FEHRIS (sire of OMAAN, a National Champion in halter and performance) and KAHLEELA, dam of multi-National Champion Working Cow Horse ZIBA JALISA+ .

*NABDA is out of NEAMAT, also dam of National Champion *NIHAL++ and National Champion sire *MOATASIM. NEAMAT is by halter and park champion *MORAFIC, sire of 30 National winners and 39 producers of National winners. Her dam HEMMAT also produced her 3/4 brother HASSAN, sire of U.S. and Canadian Top Ten Western Pleasure and race winner *IBN AL HASSAN+/.


 


#9 VanAlma

VanAlma

    Kate Smutnick

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 1,367 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:44 AM

THANK YOU for posting that write up. I will use it for personal reference. I love the Sultann lines: the very reason I just bought 2 Sultann bred mares - 1 by a Makhsous son and the other out of Nabiel daughter. That was another reason I liked the breeding on this mare given she has excellent Egyptian performance lines to nick with her polish and crabbet lines. Thanks also for looking her up on datasource. This guy is new to Arabians - always has ridden QH's until this mare - so knows the local trail rides, distances etc and might have assumed she got points when, in fact, she was just a heavily used trail horse. Who knows given datasource isn't always the best source :wacko:

#10 jjensen

jjensen

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 836 posts

Posted 09 November 2009 - 05:59 AM

I rode probably 30+ Gondolier sons and daughters while working at a training barn in Colorado back in the 90's. They all had a very steep shoulder (which is probably why you noticed that wither sticking up). This made them extremely easy to train in Western Pleasure because they could do the jog trot so easily. You didn't have to rate them back because they couldn't extend their forearm. I've got to say it was a bit like like riding a pogo stick and is not a build I would care for in a trail horse or any horse I planned on riding for more than 15 minutes. This is a line that reminded me very much of the AQHA's that I grew up riding. They were all good minded and pretty sweet.