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Speed blood in Arabs?


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#41 Billie940

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Posted 06 December 2008 - 03:32 PM

QUOTE (KizmetRanch @ Dec 5 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm sorry if you don't feel like my questions are specific enough, but there's absolutely NO other way to put it. I think the answer is a simple yes or no... It's only the background pedigrees and history behind it that gets complicated. I understand that.

I agree, going back into history myself would be a much more fulfilling way of answering my questions, however that takes a lot of time and usually a lot of money (I mean, to REALLY go back in time).. And I'm not entirely sure if I want to stay with stock horses or run with Arabians, yet. If I do decide on Arabians, I WILL go there. In the meantime, these little tidbits do go a long way in helping me form my own opinion.



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#42 Nitter_Pitter

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Posted 11 December 2008 - 01:00 PM

You know, I think the Amurath horses have seriously been overlooked in reguard to this particular question. Plum Grove Farms bred these horses to race but they went on to be show horses - and even though Plum Grove no longer breeds Arabians, the line continues to be relevant today. To me, they are the epitome of American Foundation breeding. http://www.amurathar...ow-results.html (<~The new Amurath breeders) If anyone has a write up, specificly on the Loeber's (original Amurath Breeders) breeding program I would love to see it.


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#43 tiki-bird

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 11:37 AM

QUOTE (Nitter_Pitter @ Dec 11 2008, 03:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
You know, I think the Amurath horses have seriously been overlooked in reguard to this particular question. Plum Grove Farms bred these horses to race but they went on to be show horses - and even though Plum Grove no longer breeds Arabians, the line continues to be relevant today. To me, they are the epitome of American Foundation breeding. http://www.amurathar...ow-results.html (<~The new Amurath breeders) If anyone has a write up, specificly on the Loeber's (original Amurath Breeders) breeding program I would love to see it.


http://www.straighte...p?showtopic=424



I believe one of the Plum Grove stallions was DZ Miekki. He was half Polish-Half Egyptian. I know a couple in Ohio who have used this stallion in their racing program. The husband does the training, and I have seen the wife do some exercise riding. They race in Michigan and Delaware. We sat together at a special event dinner at Delaware Park racetrack one time. She started talking about where her horses' sire was from, without mentioning his name, figuring I would not have heard of him, and I asked if she was talking about DZ Miekki. She was amazed I knew of him. He always caught my eye in those ads. Beautiful horse.

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#44 Gabriele

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Posted 12 December 2008 - 12:04 PM

QUOTE (KizmetRanch @ Nov 29 2008, 12:55 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Be prepared to sport your mare's pedigree, because that's what my questions are all about, pretty much.

I'm looking forward to some answers too.


Carolyn Gibson of Forgotten Lane Farm has racing Arabians that she uses for crossing with QH's. She attributes the success of the 1/2 Arabian to the individuals she has selected. Her QH stallion Hollywood White is a given, but the Polish racing lines she uses to cross with him, have produced very nice, athletic 1/2 Arabian reiners.

Toskhara Farms uses Polish Arabians as well in their breeding program to produce Arabian Reiners. Racing requires a strong, athletic horse and so does reining. The Poles knew this and if their horses did not stand up to the rigorous sport of racing, they were not bred on. Dick Reed of Toskhara can answer your questions.

Both Farms have web sites.

Does this help?

Liane


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"I have nothing to prove and no race to win. I am on a journey not a ladder and as such there are no levels. My only judge is my horse. I am free."


#45 SunRiver

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Posted 28 December 2008 - 09:35 AM

First of all great thread. Being a Russian Arabian enthusiast, and having a *Tamerlan daughter, Granddaughter, and two Grandson's here, I have to mention *Tamerlan. He was raced at Tersk in Russian, and his race records still stand today! I am not very computer literate, tried to post a picture of him, here is a link to All Breed. The Russian Arabians too were raced, and only the best horses were allowed to breed on. Kind regards, Sandyhttp://www.allbreedp...e.com/tamerlan2


[You know, I think the Amurath horses have seriously been overlooked in reguard to this particular question.]

Very True! Yes, Bairactar sire line, VERY athletic, and powerful horses.

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#46 NaharinsJettaBean

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Posted 27 April 2009 - 09:14 PM

QUOTE (KizmetRanch @ Nov 29 2008, 10:56 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
1. I'm a stock horse person, mostly. One of my mentors has generously taken the time to teach me all she can about QH, TB, and Paint pedigrees and breed history. Speed blood seems to be a very important factor in quality horses, and by speed blood I mean (if anybody knows about these horses) Three Bars, Leo, Barred, Beduino, Depth Charge, Top Deck, Depth Bars, Easy Jet, Ed Echols, Go Man Go, Grey Badger II, Jet Deck, Lightning Bar, Maddon's Bright Eyes, Midnight and Midnight Jr, Chicado V, Tonto Bars Hank... Those are all pre-1970s or so, going back to the early 1900s. Those kind of horses are influential in a stock horse pedigree. It's speed blood. They raced and proved themselves in match races, on the track (AA or AAA), and/or they produced champion racers.
2. However, every single one of them had near-perfect conformation (a far cry from what you see nowadays), and most of them could halter.

3. speed blood important in good quality Arabian pedigrees?
4. What are the old speed blood horses?
5. Are modern day racing Arabians still pretty conformationally correct, or have they strayed off the breed ideal?


For the purpose of answering all your questions, I have divided and numbered the post I quoted above.
1. Yes those are all off breed, as you said.
2. Good horses always have near perfect confirmation. They need it to perform the tasks they are required to do. Thats why they start young horses out in halter. If a horse has bad confirmation, chances are, it will not race, jump, or otherwise perform well...does that make sense?
3. Speed blood is most likely important in arabs bred for racing, but the most important thing is to be properly trained and confirmationally correct. Bloodlines only equal dollar signs, when it comes to winning, they have to be bred by someone who knows what the flip they are doing.
4. I'm sorry, I have no clue, I can't answer that one as I personally believe names are important only to a certain extent.
5. People often forget arabians, are horses first, a breed second...even though we say Arabian Horse, they are still horses that happen to be arabs. Generally the confirmation ideals from breed to breed run into each other, although our breed tends to vary slightly, quality confirmation tends to follow the same line as most breeds. The only difference I have noticed between the show arabs and the racing arabs is the head. They tend not to be as refined, but other than that as I said before, in order to race well, they need to have proper confirmation.

Hope that I helped



#47 PaulaM

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Posted 06 May 2009 - 06:03 AM

Boy, took me awhile to read all this. There are so many topics here to go through daily that sometimes things get over looked.
You have been given a good start from some of the racing breeders on here. I have 40 years with this breed. Does one ever stop learning? I hope not.
I applaud you for wanting to learn. Sad to say this is not an over night education really. Be like me asking you about certain bloodines in QH or TB breed. Many, many years ago I had a Three Bar grandson. Racing blood, well when he got lose he showed it but basically he was lazy and ornary.
Like all breeds, we now are in generations of breeding programs who have chosen to use lines for specific reasons. Some may carry racing blood in them but through generations of breedinng, these farmshave designed a horse for thier needs.
IF I was to get into breeding for racing, I would do like you and single out the racing breeders to discuss. I do know that Sambor and Wiking were some of the greats and still very sought after lines for breeding. The Polish horses seem to excell more in the racing divisions because of what the Poles reqiured back when in their programs.
Also, most good breeders DO lok at the mare lines sometimes even more then stallions.
As you are finding out with any breed it gets a little complicated. I also think LUCK has alot to do with any breeding for any discipline.
Again, you got some of the top racing breeders info on here.
Wishing you good luck and welcome back into the world of Arabians.

#48 Azria Arabian

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Posted 07 September 2009 - 10:26 AM

A couple of points.

Expecting to learn all about Arabians in a few short months (or years) isn't going to happen. This is a breed that has been around for CENTURIES. So not fair to compare the learning curve to QH's that's been around for about 60 years.

The Arabian, while developed in the desert was a WAR horse. Required speed, intelligence and stamina. VERSATILITY.
Different breeders over the years and different countries in particular, have placed more emphasis on proving speed via the flat track. But single trait selection does eventually produce 'off type' horses, imho. And the breed was always reknowned for it's versatility and overall athletic ability.

You might find some information here http://www.vangilderarabians.net/ regarding bloodlines that have proven themselves on the racetrack as well as other disciplines. Lots of photos available if you explore Dee's site some going back quite a ways as they have been breeding Arabians for over 60 years. Some more info on some of the horses in those pedigrees is available here
http://diablovista.h.../reference.html

Fwiw, I own a son of the Stakes Winning Nehalems Muhuli, MV Soaring Wind. He does have speed but I was never able to afford to put him on the track


Azria Arabians

MV Soaring Wind (Nehalems Muhuli x FV Auluari)
Azria Magician (Flash of Magic x Azria Raba)
Azria Auracle (Magic Aulrab x FV Hot Affair)
FV Hot Affair (Aya Matigua x FV Love Affair)
FV Ziabba (Kilauea Fire x FV Aurabba)
Azria Raba (MV Soaring Wind x FV Kisha)
Azria Liberty (MV Soaring Wind x Danajih Anne)
My Precious Gem (Prides Merit x Aur Topaz Crown)
Azria Halimah (MV Soaring Wind x FV Hot Affair)
Azria Pele (Flash of Magic x Burgandy Glory)
Azria Desert Breeze (MV Soaring Wind x FV Hot Affair)

#49 Fairfax

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 06:46 AM

Many years ago, the top Arabian race horse was challenged to a race 10,000$ winner take all by Ms Jane Ott. She was the founder of the Blue Star Arabian Horse group. (no known Muniqui blood in them)

Sam Harris backed out, and it was alledged he received reports regarding practice times logged by a stallion Ms Ott and her mother took out of the field and put into training.

These lines have long been sought after by the endurance crowd and they continue to do very well.. They have their own beauty (not halter) and since they are lines that trace only to the desert and only thru specific lines, purity is not an issue however their toughness is legendary.

If you google Blue Star breeding program..do not be confused with someone who has attempted to capitalize on the program by naming their farm Blue Star...they are NOT legitimate Blue Star breeders.
http://www.theoriginalseries.com/ should take you to the correct point to learn about them.



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#50 Cassel Mountain

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Posted 08 September 2009 - 11:08 AM

JMHO from a very short time breeder....

I think the original question was "Is speed blood important in good quality Arabian pedigrees?"

I'm going to alter that to "Is speed blood important in THE PEDIGREES OF good quality Arabian horses?"

Depends on how you define "speed blood."

Do you mean does the horse have a race record?
The Poles have used race training as a means of evaluating horses for soundness (both mind and body) and athleticism. If a horse was not able to stand up to race training, which was usually a conformation issue) then it was not deemed of a quality to carry on in the breeding shed. So yes, having "speed" blood or going back to horses who have been sound thru race training can be an indicator of sound conformation in the pedigree.

Was he/she a winner?
Not sure if this is important. Sure, the best conformed horses with the best minds will probably be winners, depending on the competition of course....

The Arabian Horse in America? Has come to us through such a variety of sources it's a real challenge to prove that "speed" = "quality." We all have our favorite types and disciplines of Arabians. And there is so much more that goes into a "quality" pedigree than racing.

If I were going to research what could qualify as an "outstanding" Arabian pedigree (which is going to be different for any and all) I'd be looking at what each horse went ON to do after racing! And is that the talent I'm breeding for? The first Arabian US Ntl Champ race horse, *Orzel, sired many horses talented in EP and Park, but also working western divisions, as well as endurance. (Yes I'm prejudiced on this line.)

And yes, the tail female line is of utmost importance. There's a reason the Poles name their babies from the mare line.





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CASSELS MAJIDA AHR*515511 21-May-1993 Mare Bay
CASSELS ZELSTA AHR*515512 20-April-1993 Mare Grey
CASSELS BRAZOS AHR*515513 24-May-1994 Stallion Bay
CASSELS HANA AHR*515514 20-May-1993 Mare Bay
CASSELS CZESKA AHR*552344 19-May-1996 Mare Bay
CASSELS GLORIOUS AHR*573696 03-May-1998 Mare Grey
CMA ARAGORN AHR*647992 19-April-2009 Stallion Grey