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Speed blood in Arabs?


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#31 clhoosier

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 08:27 PM

QUOTE (KizmetRanch @ Dec 3 2008, 12:40 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Pembroke, what is "fashionable" isn't usually correct.


HA!!!! VERY TRUE WORDS, ESPECIALLY IN THE ARABIAN HORSE WORLD!!!!!!

#32 KizmetRanch

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 09:22 PM

QUOTE (clhoosier @ Dec 3 2008, 08:27 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
HA!!!! VERY TRUE WORDS, ESPECIALLY IN THE ARABIAN HORSE WORLD!!!!!!


I'm beginning to see and understand that there are similar trends in the Arabian horse world as there are in the stock horse world. But I'm glad that I just didn't pull that one out of my a.r.s.e., lol, and that someone else agrees. It's very disappointing.

(seriously??? A-R-S-E is moderated/banned?!?)

#33 desertfire7

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Posted 03 December 2008 - 11:13 PM

I am pretty new here, but I am going to jump in, and worry about pulling my foot out of my mouth later.

Over the years, I have observed and researched what makes a good equine athlete. I have scoured over hundreds (thousands???) of photos of successful performance horses and picked apart every element of what made them so successful.

Years ago, I owned a stallion and a mare that were grandson / granddaughter of a straight Egyptian racing stallion named *Refky that was imported to race.
refky.jpg
secret1.jpg
Something seemed to happen to prevent his fullfillment of that career (partnership went sour, I think???) after he arrived on American soil, but he did sire some athletic progeny.

I sold the stallion to a friend who put him with a race trainer in TX and while the trainer was more interested in taking her money than putting the horse in a race, the workers who knew the horse told her that he was about as fast as any Arabian that had been trained there. I never heard any specific times because I was not the owner any longer, but it did not surprise me. The stallion was hotter than a pistol and he was the only stallion I ever handled that made me a little nervous. He stood about 15.2h and he was very 'thoroughbred-ish'. I regretted selling him years later when I realized what a good horse he was and he sold to someone else and died, from I do not know what. So he did not go on to materialize into the race horse I hoped he would.

His sister (same sire) was also very tall and built like more like a TB than a traditional Arabian.
Secrett_6_13_06_2520023.jpg
(not the best pic and she is at least 16 yeras old here, but it is late and I am probably boring everyone to tears anyway).

I bred her to a Khemosabi son that was out of an El Paso daughter out of a Khemosabi daughter.
kharbine01.jpg
She foaled a colt that was sold to a friend who put him into training for Working Cow Horse.
kad_97.jpg
He was not a big horse at all, but he had speed to spare, and ran very much like his dam's brother. It was like the ground didn't even exist under his feet. He glided and moved with perfection just so fast! Long story short, for 3 - 4 years (or more) now, this horse has placed Top Ten at Nationals, in Working Cow, Trail and even Cutting.

Another colt out of the same mare, was sired by a Khemosabi son.
khruz_2000_1.jpg khruz_under_saddle_001.jpg
I sold him to a man looking for a serious endurance prospect. That horse has more BC's in two seasons than some horses get in a whole lifetime and is the #2 endurance horse in his region - after only 2 seasons. As I understand it, he is one of the top 10 endurance mounts in the US.

I also bred her to one of my own stallions, a straight Egyptian, and sold the colt to a young lady who was going to ride him for endurance.
hush01.jpg
She began over feeding him and kept him too fat (according to rumor) and his saddle would not fit right - then the girl got discouraged or side tracked and sold him to someone else. I lost track of him because the papers were not transferred with him after she sold him. What a tragedy.

So, what was the common denominator? I would say the dam. Her sire was an imported Egyptian (as was her brother's) and their dams were 100% CMK. I have pedigrees online somewhere if you are curious.

The US racing industry is still relatively new, and I have been told that there are no set bloodlines, although there are very successful ones.

From personal experience, I think, more often than not, the conformation and *heart* are the most important criteria for any performance horse. I breed for performance, not halter, because I feel that the survival of the breed in general are based on success of being productive not just looking exotic. Don't get me wrong- I love exotic! And some of the halter breeders are starting to breed for better conformation, so I am not going to say the halter horses aren't bred to be ridable any more.

*Another mare I know very well (because I have taken care of her for the owners for a couple of years - and I know the breeder) is the fastest mare in the pasture. To look at her, you would not think so at all! She is a bit thick, is only about 14.2h and has as much body substance to her as the Doc Bar bred QH's she runs with. She can by FAR outrun every horse (Arabians included) in the pasture. She just flies! She is mostly old American Foundation blood, with a dash of Karadjordji.

If you have never heard of Mandolynn Hill Farm, in Texas, they are (IMO) an excellent model of a breeding farm that breeds racing horses but more than that, they breed athletes that can do almost anything under saddle - race, jump, cross country, etc. To me, that is what breeding a good horse is about.

Well, this is me shutting up now. blush.gif

#34 Billie940

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:57 AM

I remember when I was a little girl, I would ask what a word meant...the answer was always the same...look it up, that way you will remember it.

I think there is so much history to these horses, so many different answers to the same question..that a person needs to educate themselves somewhat to the Arabian breed before they know how to ask a question, that the answer can be... specific.
We are talking a war horse...they needed speed to get their rider out of Dodge when it's time to leave! Or speed to catch the "enemy" as it was leaving.
But what has happens thru the years is people have bred them for multi purposes...maybe because they liked their ears, in some cases...forgiving a crooked front leg...so back to the drawing board for the next generation to correct the faults that came with the ears! Since there is not a perfect horse , I think this is what has happened over and over again. Improve one thing, only to add something else that needs to be corrected. But when they get away from basic conformation to be rideable, it gets really serious...and these horse have to be bred a couple of generations to put a fault in the background of the pedigree. Not to say these faults won't rear their heads in any pedigree, especially it you breed to that "line" again. In the beginning it was "survival of the fittest" but mans intervention has created a long canon, long backed, weak loin, straight shouldered, small hipped, exotic animal that would not make one day as a warrior. It sure would not be the horse I would chose to leave town on!! Not to say that is what all breeders are doing...but some.

Desertfire7, I don't have your stamina...Good read, BTW, I have to go do something else now! It's my terrier disposition...can't be still long enough to really get into this, I lose my focus!

It will take many bits and pieces to get a start on this subject. And by the time you add the philosophy the its like opinions...everyone has one, it will be a very long thread, that will still take the "hands on" to get to your own opinion!


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#35 desertfire7

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 03:53 PM

QUOTE (Billie940 @ Dec 4 2008, 12:57 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Desertfire7, I don't have your stamina...Good read, BTW, I have to go do something else now! It's my terrier disposition...can't be still long enough to really get into this, I lose my focus!


Sorry 'bout that. I could not find a stopping place.

I knew I was being loooong winded, but there really are many good Arabian horses out there with blended pedigrees.

I don't think that any one bloodline group dominates the speed market.

There are more poorly bred, not so good specimens, but the successful athletes are to be found in all of the breeding groups. smile.gif

The breed was developed out of necessity for survival and any breeding group can 'run' and win, if they are built right and bred right - and trained right and then have the right $ behind them.

Like with any breed, some that were bred to run may be too laid back to race (and those still have purposes), so even nailing down the bloodline doesn't guarantee success. Unless a horse has acheived something they are all PROSPECTS, and then every successful group has their culls. So maybe someone looking to start at the top (and many can do this, but not most of us) should take the guess work out and start with breeding stock that have already won. wink.gif

Seems to me if someone seriously wanted to know what horses were the best at something, it would be best to go to the source, meaning the farms that breed for that purpose, or the competitions where said horses could be observed.

Other than that, it is all subject to opinion (?).



#36 Fairfax

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Posted 04 December 2008 - 09:13 PM

just google Arabian Horse Racing. It will give you all of the connections for breeders, stats etc. Also google Roxanne Rogers Tanglewood. She has pictures and researched articles on her website. She would be a valuable contact. Magness Arabians were major players and Lasma South handled race training for many of us.

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#37 KizmetRanch

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:42 PM

Thanks for your recent inputs Desertfire and Billie. LOVED the addition of pictures, DF, and I wasn't bored at all. There shouldn't be any foot-in-mouth action at all. Thanks for the references Firefox.

Will reply individually now...

#38 KizmetRanch

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:50 PM

QUOTE (desertfire7 @ Dec 3 2008, 11:13 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
So, what was the common denominator? I would say the dam. Her sire was an imported Egyptian (as was her brother's) and their dams were 100% CMK. I have pedigrees online somewhere if you are curious.

The US racing industry is still relatively new, and I have been told that there are no set bloodlines, although there are very successful ones.

From personal experience, I think, more often than not, the conformation and *heart* are the most important criteria for any performance horse. I breed for performance, not halter, because I feel that the survival of the breed in general are based on success of being productive not just looking exotic. Don't get me wrong- I love exotic! And some of the halter breeders are starting to breed for better conformation, so I am not going to say the halter horses aren't bred to be ridable any more.

*Another mare I know very well (because I have taken care of her for the owners for a couple of years - and I know the breeder) is the fastest mare in the pasture. To look at her, you would not think so at all! She is a bit thick, is only about 14.2h and has as much body substance to her as the Doc Bar bred QH's she runs with. She can by FAR outrun every horse (Arabians included) in the pasture. She just flies! She is mostly old American Foundation blood, with a dash of Karadjordji.

If you have never heard of Mandolynn Hill Farm, in Texas, they are (IMO) an excellent model of a breeding farm that breeds racing horses but more than that, they breed athletes that can do almost anything under saddle - race, jump, cross country, etc. To me, that is what breeding a good horse is about.

Well, this is me shutting up now. blush.gif


First of all, I loved the look of the working cowhorse filly.

I think strong damlines are pretty much thrown away by the majority of breeders (of many if not all breeds) these days, and it's a shame. Most breeders campaign and advertise their stallion, so that's where all the emphasis is re: pedigree. And I think many people don't realize how genetically influential a dam is.
However, I'm surprised the mare was CMK. Isn't that just... Crabbet/english bred? (I told you, be simple with me lol)
I agree that a horse's heart has a lot to do with how they race, BUT I think pedigree and bloodlines have A LOT (more so) to do with it as well. Like I said earlier, a linebred Three Bars/Leo horse is going to win a match race against any cowhorse-bred animal at anytime. There is something to be said about a horse's pedigree.
Elaborate on "American Foundation" please?
Am looking into Mandolynn's website now. Thanks!

#39 KizmetRanch

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 08:56 PM

QUOTE (Billie940 @ Dec 4 2008, 09:57 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I remember when I was a little girl, I would ask what a word meant...the answer was always the same...look it up, that way you will remember it.

I think there is so much history to these horses, so many different answers to the same question..that a person needs to educate themselves somewhat to the Arabian breed before they know how to ask a question, that the answer can be... specific.
We are talking a war horse...they needed speed to get their rider out of Dodge when it's time to leave! Or speed to catch the "enemy" as it was leaving.
But what has happens thru the years is people have bred them for multi purposes...maybe because they liked their ears, in some cases...forgiving a crooked front leg...so back to the drawing board for the next generation to correct the faults that came with the ears! ...

Desertfire7, I don't have your stamina...Good read, BTW, I have to go do something else now! It's my terrier disposition...can't be still long enough to really get into this, I lose my focus!

It will take many bits and pieces to get a start on this subject. And by the time you add the philosophy the its like opinions...everyone has one, it will be a very long thread, that will still take the "hands on" to get to your own opinion!


I'm sorry if you don't feel like my questions are specific enough, but there's absolutely NO other way to put it. I think the answer is a simple yes or no... It's only the background pedigrees and history behind it that gets complicated. I understand that.

I agree, going back into history myself would be a much more fulfilling way of answering my questions, however that takes a lot of time and usually a lot of money (I mean, to REALLY go back in time).. And I'm not entirely sure if I want to stay with stock horses or run with Arabians, yet. If I do decide on Arabians, I WILL go there. In the meantime, these little tidbits do go a long way in helping me form my own opinion.

#40 Slide

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Posted 05 December 2008 - 10:31 PM

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