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Speed blood in Arabs?


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#21 KizmetRanch

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 09:40 AM

QUOTE (S&D Sport Horse @ Nov 30 2008, 08:00 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Familiarizing yourself with genotype and phenotype of specific breeds and pedigrees is your best tool, yeah it may take time but that is why the people that are successful breeders (of any type of horse are successful), they have institutional knowledge.


I absolutely agree. Unfortunately my focus has been on stock horses because I don't know anybody personally in the Arabian world that is as knowledgeable and who could mentor me like that. If I get back into Arabians (and I sort of hope I do.. every experience with them has been nothing but wonderful, and I can't say the same about stock horses), maybe I'll try to research on my own.

Thanks for the article Morasgirl.

Stanislav, that's where I'm torn. I am talking about foundation Arabians... I'm just talking about the speed blood portion of them. This forum is huge, and it was hard enough finding my way here, let alone picking the proper thread to start it on. I'll find the racing part and crosspost to there...

#22 Jeffrey Wintersteen

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 11:09 AM

Absolutely dumping snow in Colorado... so some computer time. First off, I am a little unsure what you mean by "speed blood", but I have a couple general comments.

I think that "speed blood", or courage, speed, endurance, etc. is absolutely imperative for all of us to preserve the true Arabian. This is just as important as type in my opinion. The desert Arabian was a horse of war first and foremost! I know of no other sports like endurance or racing that serve as modern day tests these attributes.

I have seen a couple of comments with regards to Polish racing, its goals and it view of the French Arabians. I will actually use the words of Zenon Lipowicz so there can be little confusion:

It was decided that the Arabian races in Poland would not have maximum speed as the chief goal, but would serve to systematically condition the horses, as well as to select for soundness, courage and stamina. Premises adopted for racing Arabians in Poland were: (1) Arabian horses would race relatively long distances; (2) they would race while carrying heavier weights; (3) they would begin racing as three-year-olds; and (4) the classic races such as the Derby and Oaks would be organized for four-year-olds. Bogdan Zientarski, stud manager for Prince Sanguszko, developed an elaborate system of organizing races, so successful that the number of race days, races, participating horses, and purses increased year after year. Travelling in France in 1929, Zientarski discovered not only a 40-year history of racing, but racehorses far superior to the Polish Arabians. He imported a number of French horses, including an excellent colt, Nedjari 1926 (Nibeh DB x Nedjarine). When the imported French Arabians began winning on the Polish tracks, Zientarski eliminated the mares tracing to the old Sanguszko family lines from the breeding program. However, the Ministry of Agriculture and private breeders favored the original Polish type, highly prized for its great beauty and refinement, which was lost when the Polish Arabian was crossed with the French horse. Therefore, the T.H.K.A. ruled that the French Arabians and their progeny could not participate in classic races.

To add just a little bit of clarity (or muddy it as the case may be) to this, the modern day classics still require the horse be inscribed in the PASB, meaning born in Poland. There has, however, been an influx of French sires in Poland, last years Triple Crown winner, Orgia Fata, was by Chndaka -- a French Stallion. French stallions are used by some of the private Polish breeders. No French stallion has been used by the State Studs. There is some French blood in these horses from the aforementioned imports in 1929. What influence they had, however, has been greatly diminished.

As for *Europejczyk, who was mentioned above, he was undefeated in 8 races, 6 of them stakes races including the triple crown. He is probably more well known for siring performance horses, but has had both halter/ performance National Champions on multiple continents. *Europejczyk was by El Paso and out of Europa by Bandos. You can read more about El Paso currently in the Polish Breeders Section of this forum.

Happy to answer anything specific.

Jeff

Bob, Bonnie & Jeffrey Wintersteen
Wintersteen Arabians


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#23 KizmetRanch

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 02:20 PM

Thanks Jeff. I think that helped a little.

Can somebody post pictures of a racing or speed-blood Arabian pre-1960s, and then one in the last decade or so? Conformation photos, please, not racing photos (although I wouldn't mind that either).

#24 Pembroke

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 04:49 PM

If you are researching speed in American Foundation Arabians you might want to do a little research into the stallion Antez.

picture of Antez at Kellog


#25 S&D Sport Horse

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 06:12 AM

[quote name='KizmetRanch' date='Nov 30 2008, 12:40 PM' post='220576']
I absolutely agree. Unfortunately my focus has been on stock horses because I don't know anybody personally in the Arabian world that is as knowledgeable and who could mentor me like that. If I get back into Arabians (and I sort of hope I do.. every experience with them has been nothing but wonderful, and I can't say the same about stock horses), maybe I'll try to research on my own.

Too true, too true ... sometimes I forget how long I have been looking at arabs and their pedigree's and gathering various pieces of information and opinions on comformation, then adding in a dash of personal taste and using this to form my own opinion. At least you have the computer now to access others' knowledge. Good luck, definately check out the polish, racing and russian threads as this is where most of the info (and there are already some old pics posted) on arab racing blood will be.
Home of:
Bandos Las Ladd (*Bandos PASB x B Lovely ~ *Aladddinn) 1988 Grey Stallion
Alken (Ganges x Alkina) 2005 Black Bay Colt
Aabsolutely Five Star (Aabsolut x FS Evita ~ RD Five Star) 2007 Chestnut Colt

and their women (to name a few):
Willatra MSC (Traditio x Willa)
CR Milliegramm+ (Monogramm x CR Wind Moriah ~ Muslin & Sotep)
Wojllatra (Wojslaw x Willatra MSC)
FS Evita (RD Five Star x Patraska)
Wronica Lech (Lech PASB x *Wrona ~ Namiet)
Naproshka (*Procent x Nikiska ~ Nasmeshnik)
Miss Independence SF (RD Five Star x Carillon CC ~ Moment & Muscat)

www.sdsporthorse.com

#26 KizmetRanch

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Posted 01 December 2008 - 03:19 PM

QUOTE (Pembroke @ Nov 30 2008, 04:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you are researching speed in American Foundation Arabians you might want to do a little research into the stallion Antez.

picture of Antez at Kellog

Thank you!

#27 tiki-bird

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 07:35 AM

QUOTE (Pembroke @ Nov 30 2008, 06:49 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
If you are researching speed in American Foundation Arabians you might want to do a little research into the stallion Antez.

picture of Antez at Kellog


Hello KizmetRanch,
Antez would be a good place to start, when seeking information on American foundation Arabian horses with a propensity for racing/speed. Antez was purchased from the Kellogg Ranch by General J.M. Dickinson of the Travelers Rest Arabian Stud in Nashville, Tennessee. Dickinson was a breeder beginning in 1928. He purchased horses from previous "pioneer" breeders such as W.R. Brown's Maynesboro Stud in New Hampshire.

While Dickinson was not focusing on breeding racehorses per se, he was very interested in acquiring stock with superior athletic ability. He designed tests of endurance and speed for his horses, modeling his trials after the U.S. Army's endurance field tests from the 1920s. He also took Antez to a trotting track in Nashville to have him timed officially at shorter distances. Antez set a record (which I cannot recall off the top of my head), and an article about him appeared in a Polish horsemen's magazine in the 1930s. Eventually Antez was sold to breeders in Poland, where racing was used to test the athleticism, soundness, and temperament of stock there. Dickinson purchased several Polish Arabians (of racing pedigrees). These were the first Arabians to be imported to the U.S. (1937). Dickinson was a successful breeder, selling horses to owners in many states and foreign countries. His Arabians were as likely to work on ranches as become pleasure mounts. His bloodlines can be found in the earliest Arabian racers in the U.S. The first official race here took place in 1959. Dickinson's lines, along with those of the Polish Arabians imported as WII Prizes of War and other Kellogg horses, are well represented in the early years of the sport here.

I would like to direct you to a book I wrote that would elaborate on this exact topic. I do not know the rules about advertising on this forum, so please email me if you would like the title of the book. It is available online and not very expensive. Though its focus is on Tennesseans who have contributed to Arabian racing, my premise is that Arabian horse racing differs from Thoroughbred racing, firstly, due to the fact that the earliest runners were not bred specifically for running, but rather to be all-around, versatile riding horses. Unlike the centuries of breeding for speed among TBs, Arabian racehorses have a background in broader use, and among a broader ownership (not just the aristocracy that developed TB racing). This book developed out of my historical research for my Master's thesis dealing with class strata of horse ownership.

Dr. Sam Harrison, also of TN, elevated Arabian racing to the next level, as the sport made the transition from exhibition racing to pari-mutuel (where wagering is permitted). Of course, today, Arabians are bred solely for racing, but I think it is interesting that this has not compromised the conformation and utility of the breed, as one could argue halter classes have done.

If you are interested in the book, send me a private message, and I'll email you.
Andra

Preserving the bloodline of *Lotnik, WWII Prize of War

 

Author of Tennessee's Arabian Horse Racing Heritage
 


#28 KizmetRanch

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 02:29 PM

Thank you Tiki!

Has anyone attempted to maintain the integrity, quality, and conformation of the versatility of the show and performance Arabians, by using known Arabian racing blood? Do the modern halter type Arabians lack this speed blood up close, for example?

#29 Pembroke

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 02:58 PM

Kizmet
Antez was a straight Davenport breed stallion. Though there are some breeders who are still trying to maintian this breeding group, it is a small and well preserved group, BUT by no means considered fashionable by todays mainstream standards.

#30 KizmetRanch

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Posted 02 December 2008 - 10:40 PM

Pembroke, what is "fashionable" isn't usually correct.