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Speed blood in Arabs?


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#11 KizmetRanch

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 06:56 PM

QUOTE (Slide @ Nov 29 2008, 03:41 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I looked at August Bey V a few years ago. He's sired some amazing show horses in the English divisions, including August Engine. He's a lovely stallion with a very good temperament.

Arabians are slow compared to Thoroughbreds over short distances (under 3 miles or so), but they are faster in general at long distances 25-100 miles or more. As for which stallions are siring top racehorses, it would be best to do research on the Arabian Jockey Club site or through equibase.com and datasource. These stallions would be the proven horses passing on speed.

There is an inverse relationship between Speed and Distance. This is demonstrated by the average times in Thoroughbred racing at their various distances. Horses running 6 furlongs are faster than horses running a mile and a half.

Speed would have been important to the Bedouins. Think about the emphasis we put on fast cars in our modern culture. The bedouins would at times need to outrun their neighboring tribesmen, and they also raced their horses for sport. The best think to do to REALLY research this is to contact the WK Kellogg library at Cal Poly Pomona, they can give you a bibliography of books that would contain information about Bedouin culture and their horses.

I think your questions are a little bit vague as to what you're referring to as speed blood. Are you looking for specific horses in a pedigree that a known for passing on speed?

Hope this helps a little bit.

Sarah


Thanks for the reality call about the Bedouins. That helps a little.
Again, not important enough to research everywhere to answer one question...

I tend to be not very apt at phrasing questions or statements correctly to get my point across, but I'm honestly not sure how else to put it. I'm going to try to give examples, however it's completely off-breed.

I'm a stock horse person, mostly. One of my mentors has generously taken the time to teach me all she can about QH, TB, and Paint pedigrees and breed history. Speed blood seems to be a very important factor in quality horses, and by speed blood I mean (if anybody knows about these horses) Three Bars, Leo, Barred, Beduino, Depth Charge, Top Deck, Depth Bars, Easy Jet, Ed Echols, Go Man Go, Grey Badger II, Jet Deck, Lightning Bar, Maddon's Bright Eyes, Midnight and Midnight Jr, Chicado V, Tonto Bars Hank... Those are all pre-1970s or so, going back to the early 1900s. Those kind of horses are influential in a stock horse pedigree. It's speed blood. They raced and proved themselves in match races, on the track (AA or AAA), and/or they produced champion racers. However, every single one of them had near-perfect conformation (a far cry from what you see nowadays), and most of them could halter.

Is speed blood important in good quality Arabian pedigrees? What are the old speed blood horses? Are modern day racing Arabians still pretty conformationally correct, or have they strayed off the breed ideal?

#12 Bri-Sha Arabians

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 07:05 PM

read the above post by me. private message me if you want to know more. thanks Sharon
---------------------------
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SIR LEEO ALADD AHR*615860 ( LEEONARDO x PAF LEXA ( PHOENIX DV ) Co-owned

SWEET LIBERTY CS AHR*607193 ( DA VINCI CS x ALLEXUS SC ( DWD TABASCO)


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DA SERR RASHAD AHR*599525 ( SERR SERABAAR x RAVENWOOD KISMAT ( SONIMONIET RSI )

BSA KAILIMA EL AMIIRA AHR*636942 ( SAAREEF x BINT KAISINA ( IMPERIAL IMOHAAN )


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FIRECZYKS ASHCAR INAM AHR*631659 ( SWF EUROS FIRE x SELSHA ( SELFFAR ) Daughters ride



#13 KizmetRanch

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:49 PM

QUOTE (Bri-Sha Arabians @ Nov 29 2008, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
There was an article in one of the horsey magazines a while back: the article was about a man who had a family pet , he took it to a race and it won... so to some degree I think and believe that all arab's since they are hot blooded have the ability to race. And with proper training can and will win...
Good luck on your search, if you could be more specific as to what you are asking you may get more responses.


Thank you. I looked up a little bit about Europejczyi. He seems to be that "type" -- he can race and win, but he can also halter. He doesn't seem to be a very prepotent race sire, though... Looking up pedigrees doesn't help me at all, because I don't know the individual horses. So where did his speed come from? What are the racing bloodlines behind him?
Will look into the Pasb registry.

As far as your quote above... Am I going to be considered "rude" if I disagree again...? Any backyard horse owner could coincidentally own a horse with a fantastic pedigree that goes back to speed blood. As I've been taught, speed is the only quality that is trackable through pedigrees, that is also the only quality determined by something non-human (time). I would bet that the horse the guy had as a pet had some pretty good speed blood back there, if he won a race.
Also, I disagree with "with proper training [anyone] can and will win". I supposed it depends on who the horse is matched against. If matched, say, a completely cowbred/foundation bred QH against a linebred Three Bars/Leo horse, the Three Bars/Leo horse WILL win. Every time. It's all in the pedigree.

Am I making any more sense to anyone? I thought my questions were pretty direct (although true, it covers wide base of history), but please tell me if I'm still not helping at all... haha.

#14 KizmetRanch

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:58 PM

QUOTE (Nitter_Pitter @ Nov 29 2008, 06:39 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
That is an interesting statement to be sure. LOL! You seem very rude for someone that is asking such a vague question wanting specific answers.


I don't mean to be rude, honestly I don't. I just kind of get the feeling that if nobody is understanding what I'm asking, then maybe I'm asking the wrong people. And that's fine, I'm OK with that. And I'm not saying that any of you guys are any less exceptional horse owners than anybody else... I just think that my question will be tough to answer.

#15 Moudy

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 09:39 PM

I am not into racing nor claim to know anything about it BUT when I purchased my stallion and was told of his racing career I was informed that he was FAST out of the gate and FAST to the front but once he was up there, he gave up.

I am not sure if that answers your question but he is by *Furno Khamal out of Mistical Lady (Tornado). I did let him go all out once over my fields and it was quite scary how fast he was in comparison to my gelding Moudy who is by Moudriey out of SC Shantily (Fadl Moniet) who seems to have more endurance than the initial speed.

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#16 Slide

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 11:00 PM

A lot of those horses are Thoroughbreds, which would be speed blood in the Quarter Horse and other Stock breeds. Arabians have no contributing breeds. Most Polish and French Arabians are bred to race, so they would be most analogous. Both Poland and France have extremely active Arabian racing communities, as well as Russia in the past. The US has some bloodlines specific to racing but draw mostly on those bloodlines for racehorses. There are bloodlines proven in every discipline the Arabian breed has to offer but many individual horses are good at a lot of things. Fast racehorses and endurance horses turn up from every bloodline.

All the best,

Sarah

#17 KizmetRanch

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 12:22 AM

QUOTE (Slide @ Nov 29 2008, 11:00 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
A lot of those horses are Thoroughbreds, which would be speed blood in the Quarter Horse and other Stock breeds. Arabians have no contributing breeds. Most Polish and French Arabians are bred to race, so they would be most analogous. Both Poland and France have extremely active Arabian racing communities, as well as Russia in the past. The US has some bloodlines specific to racing but draw mostly on those bloodlines for racehorses. There are bloodlines proven in every discipline the Arabian breed has to offer but many individual horses are good at a lot of things. Fast racehorses and endurance horses turn up from every bloodline.

All the best,

Sarah


You're very right. smile.gif And if they weren't 100% TBs, they had a least SOME TB blood. But many of the TBs looked like QHs anyways, so that's why they were often used and often accepted.

Thanks for giving me the lead on Polish and French Arabians, but can you name specific influential horses (preferably with pictures)?
In doing some research on the PASB, I stumbled over a website with a couple thousand photos of Polish Arabians, going back even to the 1800s. It was fascinating. And I learned something new: Bask raced. I didn't know that (Dang I should've read "Arabian Legends" by Frank Holmes a little better). lol. So technically I guess he would be racing blood, too.
((And in the meantime, I found photos of 21 out of 30 horses in my old mare's 4 generation pedigree that I have. VERY COOL! Now I'm very much aware of where her "ugly" came from, lol. And I don't think her pedigree is as shabby as I thought it was, little do I know... It was very exciting.))

In any event, now that we're starting to get somewhere (*excited*), I don't think one of my biggest questions has been answered... Is speed blood important or highly influential in conformationally correct Arabians?

#18 Stanislav

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 06:14 AM

I would post this in the racing section and not the foundation arabian section. The foundation-bred horses have not been performing anywhere near like SOME of the polish, russian and french horses. Right now the blood that is winning is the samtiki/wiking lines and the french lines. You want to go back to the stud books that encouraged speed and bred it on. Bask did race- but not very well and that was why he was imported.

But even if you have race horses in your pedigree- unless they are not very close up it has been appearing that it doesn't make much of a difference in their ability to race. I have a full sibling to Moudy stallion- she didn't think much of the gate, let alone the actual race- but she can run incredibly fast out on the hunt course.

Dan Woods, Billie40 and Jeffrey Wintersteen are all breeders on this forum that actively breed and race arabian horses. They are also very busy people with full time breeding and training farms, so only can visit us when they have a chance to look away from their busy lives. So don't expect them to be searching ABN for a vague question on a obscure forum.

They have posted some very good info in the racing forum. There is also a wealth of information on the internet if you google arabian horse racing.

I have been told that you don't know how an arabian is going to do on the track until you get them there. They may show speed in the pastures, but it is whether they have the heart and guts to fight for the front spot(which is a naturally scary spot for a horse- they would rather be in the middle away from the boogie men).

Good luck on your search.

#19 S&D Sport Horse

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:00 AM

Here is my two cents worth, do not know if it is what you are looking for ..... in general a croup high conformation favors speed and an elevated front end (use the big dressage horse breeds here as an example) favors front end motion. Arabians are naturally built with a high croup, maybe why so many while not bred to be racers are indeed fast. There are many other factors that make a successful racer though such as .... personality (they may have to fight it out in the pack), cardiovascular capacity, bone size, tendon and ligament size, etc. With so many factors, it is impossible to predict any given horses ability until it is tested. Yeah, some may have a possible genetic advantage, but you never know.

Today's halter horse in the main ring places an emphasis on type, the front end of the horse is where type is determined (head, neck etc.), unfortunately to the exclusion of rear end conformation (yeah, they want a flat croup but there is not usually much substance there) and since the rear end is the engine of the horse, one could predict for the most part .... no racers here.

Sport Horse in Hand has a different judging criteria where type is not the most important factor. Movement is indeed the most important factor and the walk and trot on the triangle contain coefficients for scoring. The judges that judge SHIH come from the open world and are for the most part dressage and/or hunter jumper judges. So maybe the elevated front end will receive prefered treatment here as the purpose of SHIH is to determine usefulness for Sport Horse activites (dressage, jumping etc., not racing).

Familiarizing yourself with genotype and phenotype of specific breeds and pedigrees is your best tool, yeah it may take time but that is why the people that are successful breeders (of any type of horse are successful), they have institutional knowledge.

Hope this helps
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#20 morasgirl

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Posted 30 November 2008 - 08:17 AM

Here is an interesting article I found online. Copyright author.

Racing Champs Trace to England
Eclipse Begat American Winners; Domino Strengthened Bloodlines

BarbaraAnne Helberg

Bloodlines of four American Triple Crown winners trace directly to the great British running and stock champion, Eclipse. Awards are named for him.

Even though horse breeding will always remain an unscientific undertaking, horsemen will continue to search for the best bred horse of speed and stamina.

Certain ancestry and lineage have stood the test of time. American thoroughbreds today still trace back to the grand English stallion, Eclipse. Foaled in 1764, he was also an unbeatable competitor on the track.

Not a racer until the age of five, Eclipse retired from the track undefeated in 18 contests.

But what he contributed to the Sport of Kings in the breeding shed is his most important legacy. A great-great-grandson of the Darley Abrabian (owned by Thomas Darley, of Yorkshire), one of three breeds that combined to establish racing's best, Eclipse is tail male to many champions.

Most notably, all four of the American Triple Crown winners in the 1940s trace to Eclipse's lot: Whirlaway (1941), Count Fleet (1943), Assault (1946), and Citation (1948).

First foaled in Syria, the Arabian breed that came to England was revered as a top specimen. The Darley Arabian gave the world Eclipse. Today's American Eclipse Awards honor his contribution to thoroughbred breeding. His introduction to American breeding stock secured the blossoming of most of the potent lines currently in existence. While other Darley Arabian lines have disappeared, Eclipse's tail male lineage accounts for 90 percent of American thoroughbred winners.

The thoroughbred line got a lasting start with Eclipse. It was originated in America by the champion Domino. The best of European imports, including such greats as Ribot, Blenheim II, Nasrullah, Mahmoud, Princequillo, Ambiorix, Alibhai, and Sir Gallahad III, were used to refresh American lines.

Equipoise, Roman Brother, Menow, Nantallah, Blue Larkspar, Sweep, Ben Or, Heliopolis, Sickle, Bull Lea, Polynesian, St. Simon, Roman, Sun Beau, Tom Fool, Hyperion, Sysonby, Nasrullah, Black Toney, Native Dancer, Alsab, Kelso, and Buckpasser were all champions, all Eclipse tail male products.

When intermingled British stock reached its limits, oriental stallions infused new and fresh bloodlines into English mares, who returned the favor by birthing brighter, faster foals.

Imported stallions produced the lineage of today's thoroughbreds. Their stock withstood the mystery of cross breeding and continues to be coveted today.

Although the Goldolphin (Barb) Arabian (owned by the Earl of Godolphin when he came into prominence) accounts for less American champions than the Darley Arabian, his line did bring about such superstars as Man o' War, Seabiscuit, Discovery, War Admiral, and the champion filly, Busher. The Barb's grandson, Matchem, born in 1748, begat this line.

Herod, foaled in 1758, a great-great-grandson of the Byerley Turk (owned by Captain Robert Byerley), is the third link in American thoroughbred beginnings. He is believed to be a mixture of Persian and Arab bloodlines.

First Fiddle, Porter's Cap, Royal Minstrel, Whiskery, Epinard, and The Tetrarch trace to Herod. Just 3 percent of American stakes winning lineage traces to the Byerly Turk, but his cross bred lines produced other champions. Kelso, the five-time American Horse of the Year, for example, traces to Eclipse in tail male descendents, but a Man o' War mare, Maidoduntreath, by Matchem, was Kelso's maternal grand-dam.

Unscientific and mysterious, thoroughbred breeding does produce surprises along the way. Still, breeders, owners, and trainers rely heavily on the evidence of past performance.









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