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#21 Arlene Magid

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 12:52 PM

QUOTE (Peter Mileo @ Nov 27 2008, 04:26 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I always liked this horse. I wish that he had left some sires in this country that were similar in type to him. He was deep in the body, very short backed and very masculine while extremely pretty. Most of what I see that is descended from him are narrow bodied horses with no depth of girth. I guess he just wasn't bred right in the US so that his type would come through. Just my personal opinion as I liked him very much but finding the blood through a similar type horse with his attributes seems difficult.

Arlene, any idea why that seems to be.

Regards,
Peter Mileo



VERY good question, Peter, and now that I have had a chance to see a number of his get in England, I can answer it.

When *Camargue came to the US he stood at Om El Arab. His most successful get bred in the US were bred there, and involved a nick with their *El Shaklan/*Estopa horses. I'm working on a writeup on a wonderful colt imported from NZ right now, *Euralea Eleazar, who is linebred to *Camargue and a spectacular individual who has all of *Camargue's best traits. His double grandsire is Om El Abadan (*Camargue x *Bint Estopa, she by *El Shaklan x *Estopa), and he also has 2 other lines to *El Shaklan-one through the sire of U.S. Nat Ch Stallion *Fairview Klassique (Amir El Shaklan) and one through Cambriaa, a National winner in the US and Europe who is out of a predominantly Egyptian mare. The dam line on this young stallion goes back to classic Crabbet breeding (his 3rd dam is Silver Shimmer, a granddaughter of Blue Domino and Bright Shadow). Those lines add substance to enable this linebred colt to have both type and substance (not an easy combination these days). Please PM me if you'd like more info on this colt-I am pretty impressed with him and I can put you in contact with his importer.

*Camargue sired many get in England out of old Crabbet line mares, like the third dam of the colt I just mentioned. These mares are usually structurally correct (though some are apple rumped and some sickle hocked) and need a bit more type, which *Camargue provided with abundance.

Have you seen any of the Om El Arab bred *Camargue get? I am thinking also of Om El Shaina , dam of U.S. National Champion Stallion AOTH Om El Shahmaan, National winner sire Om El Shaheen and of U.S. Top Ten Senior Mare Om El Shadina (she the dam of U.S. TOp Ten Junior Mare Om El Shadream). Om El Shaina has certainly produced well and horses similar in type to *Camargue.

The get you don't like I suspect are the ones out of predominatly Gainey bred mares. Jimmy Dean was the guru to the Ferzon/Azraff breeders before his death and he advised many of them to use *Camargue as an outcross. I'm afraid he didn't live to see that this didn't work. The Gainey horses have less substance than *Camargue and can be long of back and straight of shoulder. When bred to horses with these traits *Camargue could not overwhelm them. Am I right that the horses you didn't like were the ones from Gainey type mares?

If you have Datasource, it is very interesting to note how few *Camargue sons bred in the US were kept entire after their first couple of foal crops....

Arlene
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#22 Peter Mileo

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:20 PM

QUOTE (Arlene Magid @ Nov 27 2008, 03:52 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
VERY good question, Peter, and now that I have had a chance to see a number of his get in England, I can answer it.

When *Camargue came to the US he stood at Om El Arab. His most successful get bred in the US were bred there, and involved a nick with their *El Shaklan/*Estopa horses. I'm working on a writeup on a wonderful colt imported from NZ right now, *Euralea Eleazar, who is linebred to *Camargue and a spectacular individual who has all of *Camargue's best traits. His double grandsire is Om El Abadan (*Camargue x *Bint Estopa, she by *El Shaklan x *Estopa), and he also has 2 other lines to *El Shaklan-one through the sire of U.S. Nat Ch Stallion *Fairview Klassique (Amir El Shaklan) and one through Cambriaa, a National winner in the US and Europe who is out of a predominantly Egyptian mare. The dam line on this young stallion goes back to classic Crabbet breeding (his 3rd dam is Silver Shimmer, a granddaughter of Blue Domino and Bright Shadow). Those lines add substance to enable this linebred colt to have both type and substance (not an easy combination these days). Please PM me if you'd like more info on this colt-I am pretty impressed with him and I can put you in contact with his importer.

*Camargue sired many get in England out of old Crabbet line mares, like the third dam of the colt I just mentioned. These mares are usually structurally correct (though some are apple rumped and some sickle hocked) and need a bit more type, which *Camargue provided with abundance.

Have you seen any of the Om El Arab bred *Camargue get? I am thinking also of Om El Shaina , dam of U.S. National Champion Stallion AOTH Om El Shahmaan, National winner sire Om El Shaheen and of U.S. Top Ten Senior Mare Om El Shadina (she the dam of U.S. TOp Ten Junior Mare Om El Shadream). Om El Shaina has certainly produced well and horses similar in type to *Camargue.

The get you don't like I suspect are the ones out of predominatly Gainey bred mares. Jimmy Dean was the guru to the Ferzon/Azraff breeders before his death and he advised many of them to use *Camargue as an outcross. I'm afraid he didn't live to see that this didn't work. The Gainey horses have less substance than *Camargue and can be long of back and straight of shoulder. When bred to horses with these traits *Camargue could not overwhelm them. Am I right that the horses you didn't like were the ones from Gainey type mares?

If you have Datasource, it is very interesting to note how few *Camargue sons bred in the US were kept entire after their first couple of foal crops....

Arlene


Actually the ones that I have seen are mostly the ones that have mutliple crosses to El Shaklan and Estopa. Perhaps it is too much of a good thing. I'm luke warm with El Shaklan. He left a good mark on the breed, just doesn't float my boat. My favorite El Shaklan sons happen to be two horses I like a lot and would breed to. They are Sanskrit and El Sher Mann. Unlike some of the El Shaklans that I have seen, these were more than halter horses. Sanskrit did some endurance adn El Sher Mann I believe ran on the track. Maybe it is also because their female lines are similar.

I agree with the Gainey horses but an't say I saw any of the Carmargue's out of those mares.

Regards,
Peter Mileo

City Slicker Ranch, Home of Magic Aulrab, 1993 Chestnut Stallion SCID and CA Clear and Constantene, 2006 Pure Polish Grey Arabian Stallion SCID Clear, CA Carrier, LFS Clear and Homozygous for Grey


#23 Peter Mileo

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Posted 27 November 2008 - 01:49 PM

I wonder if the Draper stock would have been a good cross for Carmargue? I think that those lines did well with El Shaklan when you look at El Sher Mann and Sanskrit. My feeling about the Om El horses is they might be too much like the Gainey, Tone and other farms. Too much of the same thing. Just my 2 sense. Like I mentioned in my PM please get information regarding the Carmargue horse from NZ to me.

Regards,
Peter Mileo

City Slicker Ranch, Home of Magic Aulrab, 1993 Chestnut Stallion SCID and CA Clear and Constantene, 2006 Pure Polish Grey Arabian Stallion SCID Clear, CA Carrier, LFS Clear and Homozygous for Grey


#24 Peter Mileo

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 02:19 PM

Here is a link to a web site of a Carmargue bred horse that Arlene told me about. He is imported from New Zealand. He also has crosses to El Shaklan but with 22 crosses to Skowronek he appears to be more of that type. In my opinion he certainly looks the most like Carmargue of the horses with lines to him that I have seen. Gari would probably be a better person to comment on that. With the look of Skowronek so strong in him, I wonder how he would do with some of those big bodied CMK mares. Perhaps some Wentworth Super horses in the making. His name is *Euralea Eleazar.

http://www.laplataarabian.com/

I don't know this horse or his owner from Adam and at this point am not breeding to him. I just think he is a nice stallion and a very good representative of the horse this thread is about.

Enjoy.

Regards,
Peter Mileo

City Slicker Ranch, Home of Magic Aulrab, 1993 Chestnut Stallion SCID and CA Clear and Constantene, 2006 Pure Polish Grey Arabian Stallion SCID Clear, CA Carrier, LFS Clear and Homozygous for Grey


#25 Gari

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 03:48 PM

Hi !

I was Carmargue's legal guardian (in the event that something absolutely unforeseen happened to Om El, Sigi and Jay) while he was in the US having discovered and written about him for the Arabian Horse Times back in '84 and felt he was the finest Arabian I'd ever encountered. He could move, he was incredibly beautiful and he had as Alun used to say, " Cam has a soft as butter disposition!" Also to put a point on it, I was the first American to breed to him having leased Sa'lilah from Mrs. Archer.

In the UK there are several wonderful *Carmargues available and one of the leading sires is the horse whose name was not remembered, owned by Lynda Free and purchased from Sharon and Sandy, WSA Charismma...He is superb.

Here are *Carmargue, Cariala, *Carmagnole, and tomorrow, hopefully will have some pictures of a *Carmargue daughter available to a very very special home. I've had offers but they seem to strictly want her for ET...This is a beautiful mare, who thrives on attention and is very loving. For those interested in pedigrees, theirs can be found on All Breeds.

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  • Carmagnole.jpg




#26 Gari

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 03:55 PM

Oops, meant to say I've only seen picts of Euralea Eleazar but do agree with Peter he looks to have the *Carmargue magic. And the way his owner describes him, Zar really sounds a chip off the old block!

Another Carmargue son alive and well is Canz (*Carmargue x Cae Bint Asadd) in New Hampshire owned by Ben and Octavia Gooch.



#27 Comstock Lode

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:48 PM

QUOTE (Gari @ Nov 28 2008, 03:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Here are *Carmargue, Cariala, *Carmagnole, and tomorrow, hopefully will have some pictures of a *Carmargue daughter available to a very very special home. I've had offers but they seem to strictly want her for ET...This is a beautiful mare, who thrives on attention and is very loving. For those interested in pedigrees, theirs can be found on All Breeds.



Gari are the pictures going to be of the grey mare we saw at your house ? I can't remember her name but it took more will power than I thought I had not to beg you for her when I saw her .

#28 Peter Mileo

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 04:59 PM

QUOTE (Gari @ Nov 28 2008, 07:48 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Hi !

I was Carmargue's legal guardian (in the event that something absolutely unforeseen happened to Om El, Sigi and Jay) while he was in the US having discovered and written about him for the Arabian Horse Times back in '84 and felt he was the finest Arabian I'd ever encountered. He could move, he was incredibly beautiful and he had as Alun used to say, " Cam has a soft as butter disposition!" Also to put a point on it, I was the first American to breed to him having leased Sa'lilah from Mrs. Archer.

In the UK there are several wonderful *Carmargues available and one of the leading sires is the horse whose name was not remembered, owned by Lynda Free and purchased from Sharon and Sandy, WSA Charismma...He is superb.

Here are *Carmargue, Cariala, *Carmagnole, and tomorrow, hopefully will have some pictures of a *Carmargue daughter available to a very very special home. I've had offers but they seem to strictly want her for ET...This is a beautiful mare, who thrives on attention and is very loving. For those interested in pedigrees, theirs can be found on All Breeds.


Is the daughter fertile? How old is she?

Regards,
Peter Mileo

City Slicker Ranch, Home of Magic Aulrab, 1993 Chestnut Stallion SCID and CA Clear and Constantene, 2006 Pure Polish Grey Arabian Stallion SCID Clear, CA Carrier, LFS Clear and Homozygous for Grey


#29 Gari

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Posted 28 November 2008 - 09:21 PM

Hi Val,

Check your messages...

Hi Peter!

She is 19 and fertile.

Hope to have some picts to post tomorrow.


For now, here is *Carmargue and then Steve Doran's New Zealand National Champion *Euralea Eleazar for an interesting comparison. What makes ZAR particularly special to me is that his tail female traces to the Ali Pasha Sherif mare Sobha via the winningest British National Champion Mare in UK history, Silver Sheen, who won the title 6 times, twice as Jr. Champion and then 4 more times as Supreme Female Champion beating her mother's record 3 time win! The sons and daughters and descendants of 'Sheeny' have been remarkable in their own right winning worldwide. In 1986 one of her descendants Australian Champion Windella Silver Sensation came to the UK and won the British National Championship, once again reminding everyone why the Silver Fire family of Hamdani Simris was Lady Wentworth's favorite!

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#30 silkhorse

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Posted 29 November 2008 - 08:43 AM

All,

Being one of the few people honored to have seen *Euralea Eleazar ďZarĒ in the flesh I can tell you this impressive young stallion is not just a pretty face but the whole package. He is very proportioned & balanced, his neck is very correct (not too long) and sets perfectly, he has great legs and feet, a strong hip and he moves with long flowing strides he is a ďhorsemanís horseĒ not some stick pony. He is the type of horse that could easily do dressage as he is just so balanced but so quick and catlike you could easily work cattle with him.

And yes Virginia they breed them different in other countries which is why we are so disappointed when they get here and we donít achieve the same results. One only has to compare how we botched several generations of imported stallions when they came here fast to collect the buck people flocked to breed anything and every thing to them. *Exelsjor is one of my favorites but he was to just everything, I think *Piaff will surprise some people in the future as his get take longer to mature (which is a problem here we are always in a hurry), even *Monogrammís daughters show some districted differences when those from Poland are compared to some bred here.

Donít get me wrong there are some really good serious breeders here that donít just breed for the halter ring or the latest fad. But I have found the major difference is most overseas breed for form to function as well a beauty and they place a lot of emphasis on the dam lines, on both sides of the pedigree.

But back to Zar this boy has outstanding dam lines; I think you will see some phenomenal horses from him in the future as his owner has some incredibly breed young mares waiting for him also with great dams. I have watched him grow from weanling/yearling photos and video to finally seeing in the flesh after his importation he really is as correct as he is beautiful, given his dam lines I expect he will be the icing on the cake in the breeding shed when bred to mares of equal caliber.

Milne

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