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Training the Show Horse


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#21 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 05:23 AM

QUOTE (Jrchloe @ Aug 21 2008, 09:08 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
What about the use of over and side check (I understand how to adjust it). How would you hook up the lines while long lining and how would you get the horse to use it (respect it, etc)?


I'm not entirely sure what you are asking, if you can clarify then I can help you and answer your question. smile.gif

#22 Jrchloe

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 09:11 AM

I'm sorry. When using a side or over check while longlining how do you attach you lines? How would you get the horse to use the check (respect it, etc)?


#23 lkirby

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 10:30 AM

When you are long-lining your horse in a surcingle, then the overcheck or sidecheck can be attached either directly to the training snaffle or to another separate bradoon snaffle. It will all depend on how the horse is going/acting. If the horse is trying to repeatedly drop his head to avoid coming into contact with the bit, then attaching the over/side-check directly to the training snaffle serves to prevent this action. But, if the horse is moving nicely forward, then the over/side-check can be attached to a separate bradoon snaffle bit, just as a gentle reminder, to allow the training snaffle to move more easily in the horse's mouth.

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Lorna G. Kirby, PE

When you have gone through fire, you won't fade in the sun!!

#24 Jrchloe

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 11:20 AM

Yes but how to do attach your lining reins? Like would you just go straight from the mouth through the back dees on the surcingle or is there another/better way?

#25 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 04:13 PM

QUOTE (Jrchloe @ Aug 22 2008, 10:11 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
I'm sorry. When using a side or over check while longlining how do you attach you lines? How would you get the horse to use the check (respect it, etc)?
QUOTE (Jrchloe @ Aug 22 2008, 12:20 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Yes but how to do attach your lining reins? Like would you just go straight from the mouth through the back dees on the surcingle or is there another/better way?


Okay, that was clear enough! smile.gif I will attach my longlines one of a few different ways depending on what the horse's reaction to what I am asking is and what I am trying to accomplish. Either directly through a set of rings and to the horse's mouth; through the rings, then through a ring attachment on the bit (for a direct draw rein effect) and snapping them back to a ring on the surcingle (either higher or lower, again depending on the individual horse) or I will attach a custom made draw rein attachment with a pulley to the bit, and snap one side of the attachment to the surcingle then attach my lines to the other part of the attachment. It's kind of hard to understand, I can get a picture of a horse utilizing them and post it for you to see, if that might help. smile.gif

I attach the overcheck or sidecheck the same way no matter if I am riding, driving or longlining (back to either the saddle or the surcingle). I will also choose to attach my longlines in one of the above mentioned ways no matter whether I'm using a sidecheck, an overcheck or neither. smile.gif Hopefully that helps!

QUOTE (lkirby @ Aug 22 2008, 11:30 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
When you are long-lining your horse in a surcingle, then the overcheck or sidecheck can be attached either directly to the training snaffle or to another separate bradoon snaffle. It will all depend on how the horse is going/acting. If the horse is trying to repeatedly drop his head to avoid coming into contact with the bit, then attaching the over/side-check directly to the training snaffle serves to prevent this action. But, if the horse is moving nicely forward, then the over/side-check can be attached to a separate bradoon snaffle bit, just as a gentle reminder, to allow the training snaffle to move more easily in the horse's mouth.

th_atrot.gif

Lorna G. Kirby, PE


I generally will attach the overcheck to an actual overcheck bradoon bit, I mainly use an overcheck with horses I intend to drive. With a sidecheck, I attach it directly to the snaffle, in front of the headstall snaps.

#26 Jrchloe

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Posted 22 August 2008 - 09:11 PM

Wow thanks for all of the great answers. I know I have lots of questions but I've gotten more information here than anywhere else. I have another question hahaha. Do you use the dressage training scale collection training? How do you train for collection?

#27 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 07:33 AM

QUOTE (Jrchloe @ Aug 22 2008, 10:11 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Wow thanks for all of the great answers. I know I have lots of questions but I've gotten more information here than anywhere else. I have another question hahaha. Do you use the dressage training scale collection training? How do you train for collection?


I don't follow any specific formula (even for training Dressage horses wink.gif) because I believe all horses are individuals and should be treated as such. That said, we have to look at the goal of collection and how best to accomplish that in a thorough manner without compromising anything. In a Saddleseat horse, I want the horse to be utterly flexible in several key places, such as the back (lumbar sacral joint) and the horse's neck. Here is one of the most wonderful articles I've ever read on collection and process of collecting a horse, this from Raymond Lacroix's website (I know you mentioned his site and Bobby Battaglia's as well, ~GREAT stuff there smile.gif):

"A common perception of the term “collection” is that it is a gathering together of the horse, resulting with his haunches underneath him and his nose is in a near vertical position. Actually, the first part is correct, but the nose, or head position, comes later. Collection is what enables the rider to position his horse’s head in any position that he wants. Collection is a three step process involving a series of muscles that contract and, just as importantly, relax. The first step in the process of collection is called engagement of the hindquarters. Engagement is when a horse drops his croup, and “tucks his butt” underneath him. A perfect example of engagement is a reining horse when he hits a sliding stop. His hocks are way under him, with his croup sloping downward as if he were “sticking his tail in the dirt”. Engagement is actually the flexion of the lumbosacral joint, which is achieved by the contraction of a muscle called the “illiopsoas”. This muscle lies underneath the horse’s pelvis.

The second step in the process of collection is the rounding of the horse’s back. This is achieved by the horse contracting his abdominal muscles, and relaxing the long muscles lying parallel to his spine, the Longisimus Dorsi. The result of both, engagement, and the rounding of the back is called “Bascule”, or “coiling of the loins”.

The third and final step in the process of collection, is the raising of the base of the horse’s neck. The spine in a horse’s neck is comprised of seven vertebrae, which are shaped in kind of an “S”. As you look at a horse’s neck, the spine does not follow the general outline as defined by the muscles and ligaments that we can touch, and know as his “neck”. Instead, it curves gently from the poll for two vertebrae, and then slopes and drops downward away from the visual “crest” of the neck, and finally gently curves into the body of the horse at more or less the midpoint of the shoulder. It is this final curve of the neck, at the base, or “root” of the neck that is the third and final key to the process of collection. A muscle that is also is underneath the spine, called the “Scalenus” muscle, contracts and causes the lower three segments of the “S” shape to flatten, or raise. The effect of this can also be said to be “a raising of the withers”
."

What I like so much about Raymond's methods and especially his explanations is because he now approaches training from a physiological standpoint. There are a variety of articles on Joel Kiesner's site as well that are both educational and enlightening. I have four "go to guys" for training English horses: Raymond Lacroix, Tim Shea, Bobby Battaglia and Joel Kiesner.

Hopefully this has answered your question, bottom line I guess is I honestly don't follow formulas but rather teach each horse as an individual. biggrin.gif

#28 Jrchloe

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:36 AM

Oh, do you have the web addresses to the other 2 guys?!?

#29 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 08:50 AM

QUOTE (Jrchloe @ Aug 23 2008, 09:36 AM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
Oh, do you have the web addresses to the other 2 guys?!?


Joel's site is Kiesner Training and you can find a direct link to his articles page Here.

Tim's site is Shea Stables, home of Afire Bey V and IXL Noble Express.

#30 Jrchloe

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Posted 23 August 2008 - 09:31 AM

Thank you! Does Shea's website have articles? If so where I'm kinda lost haha.