Jump to content


Photo

Country versus English Pleasure


This topic has been archived. This means that you cannot reply to this topic.
35 replies to this topic

#21 SunlitFarmTraining

SunlitFarmTraining

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 960 posts

Posted 18 April 2008 - 07:32 AM

Dang I am old enough to say that I WON THE FIRST Show Hack Class held in California. It was strictly a Canadian class before then.

It was fun because you used to strip the horses and then show them in hand.

Could not do that now with our high butted sway backed horses that now predominate the Arabian breed. Oh wait they can pretty much pose out of it in halter so it does not really count....

Whoops I am onto another rant..............

Here we go with suggesstions.

JUDGES READ THE SPECS in the rule book.
(they have not changed those have they?)

GET THE PADS OFF OUR HORSES.

Penalize horses that move to high.
Penalize horses that have no back end to match the front (oh wait there would be no entries)
Penalize UNHAPPY horses who constantly chew the bit and look miserable (oh wait we would have no entries)

I have to say if I knew nothing about Arabians and went to a show for my first exposure I would run away screaming, after calling PETA to come save the halter horses. and all the performance horses who are longed to death on 40+ foot of line, before they go show........

Dang I am ranting again


Curious, which show was that initial Show Hack class you won at? I recall the first Region 1 club that held Show Hack back in 1986 was Sierra Empire that July (with no Championship), I placed second out of 20-25 or so horses in that class (not too sure on the exact number of entries shown and judged, but it was quite a few), there were even horses shown in flat saddles, while most were Hunters. Not a Dressage saddle, top hat or tails in sight! That came MUCH later. :) The gelding I rode was a Hunter, we didn't change much about his way of going, other than the required true collection and extension. My biggest memory from that year was NO Regional Championship offered in Region One until a couple of years later, after my qualification had expired. :D LOL

On stripping horses, remember the days when ALL performance horses in Championship classes were stripped for conformation judging? Those were the days.

About your points made above:

JUDGES READ THE SPECS in the rule book.
(they have not changed those have they?)


No, the rules have not been changed for the Country division, not in recent years. I have advocated judges being required to give oral reasons as to why they placed horses, so exhibitors could see when errors, political or bad judging takes place.

GET THE PADS OFF OUR HORSES.


This one I have a hard time with, because some horses do benefit from a single pad between the hoof and shoe. That said, our shoeing jobs are OUT OF CONTROL. The new "trial period" shoeing regulations put into place for, what is it, three years, have been a physical disaster for many horses, IMO. A lot of trainers have fully taken advantage of being allowed so much free rein in shoeing and I do not see that as a good thing. Heck, even HALTER horses are now wearing weighted shoes with stacked pads. What's up with that?!

Penalize horses that move to high.


Agreed. The rub there is, what constitutes a penalty? I have heard judges from today's ring say oftentimes "the horse's quality outweighed the penalty incurred" for high knee action (which is supposed to be MANDATORY). But not mandatory elimination from judging. Maybe more 'teeth' to the high knee action penalty is in order?

Penalize horses that have no back end to match the front.


This goes for many English Pleasure horses, too. Speaking of EP, since I have heard this so many times, since when is an EP horse NOT supposed to be a mannerly, easy horse to ride? It's still a PLEASURE class, darnit.

Penalize UNHAPPY horses who constantly chew the bit and look miserable.


Again, this falls under PLEASURE class specifications and can apply to Hunter horses, Western horses and English Pleasure horses. Sigh.

What it will take is drastic changes in the way our show ring is judged in it's entirety.

#22 jaycyrewin

jaycyrewin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 426 posts

Posted 19 April 2008 - 03:47 PM

I can say that I remember when Country English and Hunter Pleasure came around ;) And that stripping horses for confo judging? That would get some people out of the running (personally, I hate having to strip a horse :D But, I'll do it)

I second, third, fourth, say aye and whole heartedly agree to the "no pads" rule with some exception. Perhaps a flat pad for those horses who need it (I have a 1/2 arab that is "tenderfooted" at certain comps because we have to walk on asphalt or concrete everywhere) but NO big hunking TWH pads :)

Make the arabs act like an arab :) Not like a saddlebred!

:: goes off to ride her low-action, sort of calm (in training), happy saddleseat CEP horse ::
~*A Enter working trot rising! X Halt, salute. Proceed at working trot!*~

#23 SunlitFarmTraining

SunlitFarmTraining

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 960 posts

Posted 20 April 2008 - 02:22 PM

I can say that I remember when Country English and Hunter Pleasure came around :) And that stripping horses for confo judging? That would get some people out of the running (personally, I hate having to strip a horse ;) But, I'll do it)

I second, third, fourth, say aye and whole heartedly agree to the "no pads" rule with some exception. Perhaps a flat pad for those horses who need it (I have a 1/2 arab that is "tenderfooted" at certain comps because we have to walk on asphalt or concrete everywhere) but NO big hunking TWH pads :)

Make the arabs act like an arab :) Not like a saddlebred!

:: goes off to ride her low-action, sort of calm (in training), happy saddleseat CEP horse ::


Okay, here are a few photos that say "Country English Pleasure" to me:

BrutusCEP1.jpg
BrutusCEP2.jpg
Brutus2.jpg
BrutusCEP4.jpg
StacyandAngylIngalls.jpg
AngelCountryEnglish1.jpg
AngelGA5.jpg
AngelPalmdale2.jpg

#24 jaycyrewin

jaycyrewin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 426 posts

Posted 05 May 2008 - 05:32 PM

Yeah! Country English pleasure pictures. No excessively high motion... no one is overbridled... That's what my little man is starting to look like... Pictures to come...

And a slighty unrelated question....

Does anyone think it's strange for a 14.1 CEP horse to be ridden by a 5'9'' rider? :lol:
~*A Enter working trot rising! X Halt, salute. Proceed at working trot!*~

#25 SunlitFarmTraining

SunlitFarmTraining

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 960 posts

Posted 05 May 2008 - 06:14 PM

Yeah! Country English pleasure pictures. No excessively high motion... no one is overbridled... That's what my little man is starting to look like... Pictures to come...

And a slighty unrelated question....

Does anyone think it's strange for a 14.1 CEP horse to be ridden by a 5'9'' rider? :D


That grey horse I posted pics of above is barely 14 hands...and I am 5'10", so I say GO FOR IT! :)

Awaiting pics. :D :) :)

#26 MCBluestarstables

MCBluestarstables

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 358 posts

Posted 10 June 2008 - 10:04 PM

I have the perfect Country Pleasure mare! She has perfect knee action and fits the description for CEP to a Tee :) But then I see all crazy huge trotting horses in CEP nowdays and they are winning!!!!!! How is that fair? Why arent they in EP? When did CEP become EP?

I am also noticing when the judge asks for "walk on a loose rein" the reins arent really loose, its like the rider just moved there hands up on the mane a bit and you can see the horses just ready to expplode into a trot if they even gave them a bit more rein... And these people are stilling winning. When I do a loose rein with my mare and when I did with my gelding, my reins had a loop in them, I had a real loose rein and my horses would walk nice and slow.

So is CEP going to ever change and be the way it used to be? Or will we just have to take our CEP horses and throw them in hunter and trot like crazy in there hahahahhahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!

This is my CEP mare, this pic is of our very first ride together. I think she has a great CEP trot, but have been told that to compete in Nationals they need
to trot HUGE! My mare can trot bigger than this, this pic doesnt show her good high trot, my fault eeek :) But she is my idea of a CEP horse

maliburide3.jpg
Blue Star Stables

www.mcbluestarstables.com

#27 NVArabKid

NVArabKid

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 271 posts

Posted 11 June 2008 - 07:40 PM

Okay people, let's realize one thing: animation is about 75% of the winning CEP horse. I think that CEP should be largely based on manners but personally I like to see a very bright and poppy horse for CP. Some don't realize that there are horses in EP that are there because they are too hot for CEP and that reason only, some do not necessarily move that huge but they are way too HOT.Which IMO is a wise choice made by the ride/owner/trainer as they see the horse is happier in a more high pace class. Yes there are some VERY hot horses in CEP, but most of them do belong there even if they need a refresher course in manners, since when are english horses supposed to be boring? Alot of the "big moving" horses in CEP that I have seen are there because they have the manners and composure to be there, and maybe aren't hot enough for EP. And hey, that's totally fine, don't push them into something they don't want to do. Below is a pic of a mare my mom used to have and she is a BIG mover, but she is very bright yet has the best manners. I'm not saying shes not hot but thats what gives her an edge. I pretty much think she's ideal, this photo is from her TOP TEn in Jr. Horse.

Justin

_lola9.jpg

#28 psaintgirl

psaintgirl

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 289 posts

Posted 28 June 2008 - 09:02 PM

This is what I think of as a CEP horse:
both of these mares are calm, have great mouths, and are happy to do their job, they both have nice action up front, but they do not have the power to be competitive or happy in English Pleasure. They don't have the longest necks either, but they can hook up in the bridle nicely.

Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image
Posted Image

These mares are half sisters btw, and as for conformation, they are very correct and have great legs.

MC, I like your mare very much :(

*top photo and bottom 2 photo's Copywrite Todd Branscombe Photography.
Katy

~Future Arabian Horse Trainer!~
Working for multi-national champion trainer Cari Thompson!

Proud owner of:
Psaint VF (Psymadre x Lappes Mreekhie)
Multiple Class A Champion Arabian Hunter Pleasure JTR/JOTR/Open
Regionally titled in Hunter Pleasure and Equitation

Myspace
Really fun/addicting horse game
Click Here for my dad's photography

In It To Win It

#29 cjminimart96

cjminimart96

    Member

  • Members
  • PipPip
  • 21 posts

Posted 15 November 2008 - 08:44 PM

In my humble opinion, it comes down to the judges, the class isn't supposed to be about how igh they can go. It is about pure manners with a pop at the knee. The consistent horses with correct headset and ok motion should be in the top three, not the english horses! I have gathered that the CEP classes have become the english classes, the english classes have become the park classes, and the park classes look like you are watching a saddle-bred park class.

Christian Martens
HMR Steam Heat
Country English Pleasure
Saddle Seat Equitation
Show Hack
Native Costume

Check out my blog.

Give a helpless animal a home, adopt from P.A.W.S. Inc.


#30 jaycyrewin

jaycyrewin

    Advanced Member

  • Members
  • PipPipPip
  • 426 posts

Posted 16 November 2008 - 01:26 PM

QUOTE (cjminimart96 @ Nov 15 2008, 11:44 PM) <{POST_SNAPBACK}>
In my humble opinion, it comes down to the judges, the class isn't supposed to be about how igh they can go. It is about pure manners with a pop at the knee. The consistent horses with correct headset and ok motion should be in the top three, not the english horses! I have gathered that the CEP classes have become the english classes, the english classes have become the park classes, and the park classes look like you are watching a saddle-bred park class.


I think you have it just perfect...

High action is penalized in CEP... or it should be!

USEF AR 125 smile.gif

~J

~*A Enter working trot rising! X Halt, salute. Proceed at working trot!*~