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Country versus English Pleasure


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#11 jaycyrewin

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 05:26 PM

Van Jacobsen was the judge for Main Ring. He was GOOD. And I dont' think he'd signed off on the sheets before we backed... because he actually was still writing numbers down after we backed. I think that's the ONLY reason we placed 3rd in one class. If it's ANYTHING my mare can do, tired, stressed, pissy.. she'll always back!

Mr. Jacobsen also did a VERY good job with the main ring halter classes. I was trying to "judge on my own" , wrote down things I would have taken off for. Seemed like he was penalizing for over shanking (the kind that the horse JUMPS from, yeah!) and he really didn't like the swan necked horses who were nothing but neck :( He also commented to one BNT that he needed "less GOO" on his mare. Maybe there is hope out there?

I was very impressed by his fairness. Even if a horse freaked out in one class.. if the horse was in the next class, he didn't "remember" the horse's bad behavior! Ah... it's refreshing!
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#12 I♥Arabs

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:12 PM

I wanted to share my experience...a beginnerís perspective. Last year was my 1st in the Arab show ring and in the amateur CEP class there were 5 horses, I didn't get a close look at the others because I was busy riding! However I went later to watch the open CEP class and noticed that the trainer that won definitely had a horse that looked EP. As a newcomer it made me question whether it will be possible to be competitive in the Arabs. My sabino Arabian is also registered pinto and I felt like we had a better chance against the Saddlebreds iin saddleseat because it was OK to look like a CEP Arabian. Confusing, I'm still learning.

#13 sacheson19

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 06:28 PM

My fiance finally got the chance to hit and A show with me. He couldn't believe how big the country horses we moving. There were like 13 horses in a CEP class 3 in an english class and 2 park horses. We counted at least 4 that belonged in the english divison. It discourged him from showing.

#14 AllyssaJaneLLC

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:11 PM

AR125
It is imperative that the horse give the distince appearance of being a pleasure to ride. A **quite, responsive mouth is paramount .... To me this means that the horse should NOT have it's lips pulled back to its chin, and the rider should not be hanging on for dear life!....


Hmm... I can't say that I agree with this. Just because a photo has a horse's lip pulled back has nothing to do with a quiet, responsive mouth.. My National Champion country gelding moves his lips when he is being ridden, but it doesn't make him have an unresponsive mouth.. There is much more to a good Country English Pleasure horse than this.

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#15 dragon

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Posted 15 April 2008 - 07:46 PM

Congratulations to Jacobsen for judging to the specs - that took guts. If our "polictically correct" judges would judge Country to the specs it would not take too long for the class to come back to what it was intended to be. Doubt that happens any time soon and won't be holding my breath.

#16 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 03:53 PM

Van Jacobsen was the judge for Main Ring. He was GOOD. And I dont' think he'd signed off on the sheets before we backed... because he actually was still writing numbers down after we backed. I think that's the ONLY reason we placed 3rd in one class. If it's ANYTHING my mare can do, tired, stressed, pissy.. she'll always back!

Mr. Jacobsen also did a VERY good job with the main ring halter classes. I was trying to "judge on my own" , wrote down things I would have taken off for. Seemed like he was penalizing for over shanking (the kind that the horse JUMPS from, yeah!) and he really didn't like the swan necked horses who were nothing but neck :) He also commented to one BNT that he needed "less GOO" on his mare. Maybe there is hope out there?

I was very impressed by his fairness. Even if a horse freaked out in one class.. if the horse was in the next class, he didn't "remember" the horse's bad behavior! Ah... it's refreshing!


We will have to be on the lookout for Van to judge here in CA! lol I know he is on my list a few times (I keep a list of every judge we've ever shown under), but I cannot recall the last time it was.

I wanted to share my experience...a beginnerís perspective. Last year was my 1st in the Arab show ring and in the amateur CEP class there were 5 horses, I didn't get a close look at the others because I was busy riding! However I went later to watch the open CEP class and noticed that the trainer that won definitely had a horse that looked EP. As a newcomer it made me question whether it will be possible to be competitive in the Arabs. My sabino Arabian is also registered pinto and I felt like we had a better chance against the Saddlebreds iin saddleseat because it was OK to look like a CEP Arabian. Confusing, I'm still learning.


Unfortunately it IS confusing, and not just for newcomers! I have been riding, training and showing Arabian horses since the 1970's, and I am still baffled by a lot of the placings I see in the Country division on a regular basis. Why in the world this was ever allowed to happen is beyond me, but it goes back to the problem with judging and judges not being held accountable for the way they place horses and whether they follow the rulebook specifications.

My fiance finally got the chance to hit and A show with me. He couldn't believe how big the country horses we moving. There were like 13 horses in a CEP class 3 in an english class and 2 park horses. We counted at least 4 that belonged in the english divison. It discourged him from showing.


That is what I fear, that the disparity between what is winning in the CEP division and what should be winning in CEP will drive more exhibitors away.

We are supposed to have accountability starting to happen in the Halter world, it's about time it happened in performance, too. :)

Hmm... I can't say that I agree with this. Just because a photo has a horse's lip pulled back has nothing to do with a quiet, responsive mouth.. My National Champion country gelding moves his lips when he is being ridden, but it doesn't make him have an unresponsive mouth.. There is much more to a good Country English Pleasure horse than this.

- Allyssa


I do believe there are a lot of definitions out there of a "quiet, responsive mouth".

Honestly, I have no problem with a horse who is a little bit busy with their mouth winning in CEP, but that's about as much as I will tolerate. Gnashing teeth, chomping on the bits, drawing the lips way back and generally showing other signs of duress (which are frequently seen at the Regional and National level) do not necessarily have anything to do with how responsive a horse is, but it certainly does not show me a quiet mouthed, correct Country Pleasure horse.

#17 sacheson19

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 08:08 PM

My best friend went to judging school and has been contacting some people to learner judge. One judge wrote her basiclly telling her not to do it that its a waste of time and money since our industry is the way it is. Well are industry is the way it is because the judges judge it that way. Thats the whole reason she want to judge so she can try and make a change. In all true honestly she won't make a change it is going to take more than just her to do it.

#18 BFF

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Posted 16 April 2008 - 08:39 PM

Sadly I have been around long enough to see the evolution....

CEP is out of Control, they are the EP horses of yesteryear.

The Hunter Pleasure horses are ridiculous, they move like Country Horses

Show Hack is ludicrous (not Sport Horse show hack but the other one) again looks like the old EP horses, and no one has an idea of what collection really is.

First thing I would do is go back to the old shoeing regulations. How and why the elite were able to pull this off is amazing to me.

Even the bloody Western horses have pads.

I just bought a gorgeous 16 hand half arab. I swear he has enough pads to make a TWH be put to shame. There is no reason for this horse to have these kind of pads. The old owners proudly told me he had just been shod. My farrier will be here Friday to start fixing his feet.

I remember the no pad days when my jumping horse who had some ringbone, would have to have his pads pulled two days before the show..........here was a horse who actually NEEDED PADS.

Now we have the other end of the extreme.

Ok I could rant forever. I know I am old now because I wish things were like it used to be and our Arabians looked and moved like Arabians and not some kind of Half A**ed Saddlebred

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#19 SunlitFarmTraining

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Posted 17 April 2008 - 07:40 AM

Sadly I have been around long enough to see the evolution....

CEP is out of Control, they are the EP horses of yesteryear.

The Hunter Pleasure horses are ridiculous, they move like Country Horses

Show Hack is ludicrous (not Sport Horse show hack but the other one) again looks like the old EP horses, and no one has an idea of what collection really is.

First thing I would do is go back to the old shoeing regulations. How and why the elite were able to pull this off is amazing to me.

Even the bloody Western horses have pads.

I just bought a gorgeous 16 hand half arab. I swear he has enough pads to make a TWH be put to shame. There is no reason for this horse to have these kind of pads. The old owners proudly told me he had just been shod. My farrier will be here Friday to start fixing his feet.

I remember the no pad days when my jumping horse who had some ringbone, would have to have his pads pulled two days before the show..........here was a horse who actually NEEDED PADS.

Now we have the other end of the extreme.

Ok I could rant forever. I know I am old now because I wish things were like it used to be and our Arabians looked and moved like Arabians and not some kind of Half A**ed Saddlebred


Just curious, is the 16h Half Arab you just bought one of the El Camino horses? If so, which one? There were a number of really pretty darn nice Half Arab Hunters there...

I agree with you about the, how was that Lorry Wagner termed it? "De"-evolution of our divisions?

Those of us who are old enough to have been around for the early days of the HP, English Show Hack and CEP divisions start feeling a little bit of camaraderie, don't we? LOL

Oh, for the way it was...

Now what to do about it?

(I still haven't gotten around to tracking down pictures to post for the discussion above...actually, I forgot. :) )

#20 BFF

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Posted 18 April 2008 - 06:34 AM

I agree with you about the, how was that Lorry Wagner termed it? "De"-evolution of our divisions?

Those of us who are old enough to have been around for the early days of the HP, English Show Hack and CEP divisions start feeling a little bit of camaraderie, don't we? LOL

(I still haven't gotten around to tracking down pictures to post for the discussion above...actually, I forgot. :) )



Dang I am old enough to say that I WON THE FIRST Show Hack Class held in California. It was strictly a Canadian class before then. (I also think it might have been the first SH class in the United States)

It was fun because you used to strip the horses and then show them in hand.

Could not do that now with our high butted sway backed horses that now predominate the Arabian breed. Oh wait they can pretty much pose out of it in halter so it does not really count....

Whoops I am onto another rant..............

Here we go with suggesstions.

JUDGES READ THE SPECS in the rule book.
(they have not changed those have they?)

GET THE PADS OFF OUR HORSES.

Penalize horses that move to high.
Penalize horses that have no back end to match the front (oh wait there would be no entries)
Penalize UNHAPPY horses who constantly chew the bit and look miserable (oh wait we would have no entries)

I have to say if I knew nothing about Arabians and went to a show for my first exposure I would run away screaming, after calling PETA to come save the halter horses. and all the performance horses who are longed to death on 40+ foot of line, before they go show........

Dang I am ranting again

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